4 ms·

The point is that you can utilize user analytics without cross-correlating every damn aspect of my life and buying habits.

gyardley 15y ago
Of course I could. I could do a lot of other things that wouldn't be as effective, too. When you use something for free that requires money to produce and maintain, of course every damn aspect of your life and buying habits is going to be cross-correlated, as long as this is legal and profitable in aggregate. (Often it isn't profitable. People dramatically overestimate how interesting and/or valuable they are.) Seriously, you've been handed something for free and I don't look like Santa Claus. What'd you expect?
- 5hoom 15y ago
  Your point is valid, but what seems reasonable & pragmatic to a developer can seem creepy & invasive to a user.
- Timothee 15y ago
  When you use something for free Are you talking about the app here? Because the price of the app has nothing to do with it, since I'm sure many paying apps use analytics tools as well. The problem is not the use of analytics to improve the app either, but the fact that Flurry can track you specifically over multiple apps. If you're talking about Flurry being free, the major problem is that, as a developer, you get the functionality for free but it's the user that pays by giving away behavioral information. You're making the decision for the user that it's ok to use a service that will track you over multiple apps. edit: I admit that I use Google Analytics on websites, so I'm no better… (though I don't have any "real" sites) Ideally, there would be cheap (or better: FOSS) analytics tools you can set up on your own servers that are good enough for most basic tracking. Or to go with analytics tools that don't have an advertising arm. (do they exist at all?) (…) Ok, I just looked at your profile. I feel it's important to note that you co-founded a company (Pinch Media) that was acquired by Flurry. Seems like a relevant disclosure.
  - gyardley 15y ago
    You could use something like Piwik for your Google Analytics problem - it's open source - although I don't believe it or any of the other open-source solutions scale well beyond a single box, so if your website takes off you'll have trouble. Many analytics tools exist that don't have an advertising arm - in fact, most don't. They charge developers directly. Mobile device analytics are a bit of an aberration, mainly for historical reasons, although paid solutions there also exist. For the user to 'pay' by giving away behavioral information, they'd have to suffer some sort of economic loss. They don't. (As an aside, a lot of the arguments made in favor of music or application piracy are surprisingly relevant to the collection of behavioral targeting data.) I believe that ideas should stand on their own, so I generally don't disclaimer up my posts. For example, I'm always irritated when someone dismisses a politician's stance because of his donors, as if to suggest he was bought. In the politician's case, he has the donors he does because of his ideas, not the other way around. In my case, I have the economic interests I do because of my ideas - again, not the other way around.
- Aqua_Geek 15y ago
  > People dramatically overestimate how interesting and/or valuable they are. Regardless of how "uninteresting" or "worthless" my interests, browsing habits, purchases, etc. are, they point is that they are mine and I never gave my consent.
  - gyardley 15y ago
    Your interests, browsing habits, purchases, etc. are still yours, even though you may have also given them to someone else. They're not physical goods. When you 'give them away', you don't lose them. I'm not familiar with every mobile platform's current agreements with its users, but back when I was, most had you agree to a pretty broad policy regarding third-party apps to spare their developers the need to write their own terms of service and privacy policy. That's generally where the consent happens. In the exceptions, the developers do provide terms of service, which you consent to as a condition of installing the app. You almost certainly didn't give your fully informed consent, mind you, unless you enjoy reading legal documents - but that's the current state of the industry both online and off, and in my mind far superior to an extensive batch of lengthy in-your-face disclosures you'd have to agree to before viewing any website. You may disagree, and you may wish that things were different, but that's just how the world works right now.

gyardley 15y ago

Of course I could. I could do a lot of other things that wouldn't be as effective, too. When you use something for free that requires money to produce and maintain, of course every damn aspect of your life and buying habits is going to be cross-correlated, as long as this is legal and profitable in aggregate. (Often it isn't profitable. People dramatically overestimate how interesting and/or valuable they are.) Seriously, you've been handed something for free and I don't look like Santa Claus. What'd you expect?

5hoom 15y ago
Your point is valid, but what seems reasonable & pragmatic to a developer can seem creepy & invasive to a user.
Timothee 15y ago
When you use something for free Are you talking about the app here? Because the price of the app has nothing to do with it, since I'm sure many paying apps use analytics tools as well. The problem is not the use of analytics to improve the app either, but the fact that Flurry can track you specifically over multiple apps. If you're talking about Flurry being free, the major problem is that, as a developer, you get the functionality for free but it's the user that pays by giving away behavioral information. You're making the decision for the user that it's ok to use a service that will track you over multiple apps. edit: I admit that I use Google Analytics on websites, so I'm no better… (though I don't have any "real" sites) Ideally, there would be cheap (or better: FOSS) analytics tools you can set up on your own servers that are good enough for most basic tracking. Or to go with analytics tools that don't have an advertising arm. (do they exist at all?) (…) Ok, I just looked at your profile. I feel it's important to note that you co-founded a company (Pinch Media) that was acquired by Flurry. Seems like a relevant disclosure.
- gyardley 15y ago
  You could use something like Piwik for your Google Analytics problem - it's open source - although I don't believe it or any of the other open-source solutions scale well beyond a single box, so if your website takes off you'll have trouble. Many analytics tools exist that don't have an advertising arm - in fact, most don't. They charge developers directly. Mobile device analytics are a bit of an aberration, mainly for historical reasons, although paid solutions there also exist. For the user to 'pay' by giving away behavioral information, they'd have to suffer some sort of economic loss. They don't. (As an aside, a lot of the arguments made in favor of music or application piracy are surprisingly relevant to the collection of behavioral targeting data.) I believe that ideas should stand on their own, so I generally don't disclaimer up my posts. For example, I'm always irritated when someone dismisses a politician's stance because of his donors, as if to suggest he was bought. In the politician's case, he has the donors he does because of his ideas, not the other way around. In my case, I have the economic interests I do because of my ideas - again, not the other way around.
Aqua_Geek 15y ago
> People dramatically overestimate how interesting and/or valuable they are. Regardless of how "uninteresting" or "worthless" my interests, browsing habits, purchases, etc. are, they point is that they are mine and I never gave my consent.
- gyardley 15y ago
  Your interests, browsing habits, purchases, etc. are still yours, even though you may have also given them to someone else. They're not physical goods. When you 'give them away', you don't lose them. I'm not familiar with every mobile platform's current agreements with its users, but back when I was, most had you agree to a pretty broad policy regarding third-party apps to spare their developers the need to write their own terms of service and privacy policy. That's generally where the consent happens. In the exceptions, the developers do provide terms of service, which you consent to as a condition of installing the app. You almost certainly didn't give your fully informed consent, mind you, unless you enjoy reading legal documents - but that's the current state of the industry both online and off, and in my mind far superior to an extensive batch of lengthy in-your-face disclosures you'd have to agree to before viewing any website. You may disagree, and you may wish that things were different, but that's just how the world works right now.