5 ms·

I think onsite working can be nice but the problem is that it is really hard to find a company that doesn't try to cram you into an open plan office with at lea

by nextos 4y ago

I think onsite working can be nice but the problem is that it is really hard to find a company that doesn't try to cram you into an open plan office with at least half a dozen people. I can't do any real work like that. Before COVID, I was going to the office to talk to people, attend meetings and do chores, whereas I did real work at home. It was unsustainable, as work ended up filling 80+ hours per week.

zmmmmm 4y ago
> it is really hard to find a company that doesn't try to cram you into an open plan office with at least half a dozen people exactly I'd be fine to go into the office but don't be under the illusion I'm going to accept materially worse working conditions in order to do it. I guess it isn't the same for everyone, but my home office is a very high bar to beat and it makes a real difference to my productivity and mental well being to be there.
- nomdenator 4y ago
  I wonder what I'm missing in this concept. You would think that the people in charge would see that real estate is an unnecessary expense, where applicable. Also, I've been to a lot of meetings where we were told "there are other things people value in work besides money". Maybe being able to manage your own work environment and save gas and time fits in that slot. A content, well rested workforce would be better IMO than one that's frazzled and is getting less out of their employment than they know is possible. I'm at the age where I see Time as more valuable than anything, really.
  - jonathankoren 4y ago
    > You would think that the people in charge would see that real estate is an unnecessary expense, where applicable. Some real estate is a sunk cost, and the execs doubling down on it. Apple and Google both dropped 2 or 3 billion combined on fancy new offices just before the pandemic. You can’t sell those buildings, their too big, and they’re not subdivided well enough to rent out parts of them, so everyone comes back to work
    - WWLink 4y ago
      Apple's HQ campus is an interesting one because it's only a small percentage of their employees that actually work there. I imagine if they downsized their silicon valley properties down to infinite loop and the ring building, they'd still be able to easily fill them up with people who like working onsite, conference rooms, meeting spaces, labs, etc. I am not personally aware but I do remember hearing they had office spaces all over the place because they don't have enough room on the main campuses for all of the employees.
      - jonathankoren 4y ago
        Yeah, they still have a lot of offices spread out all over Cupertino.
  - zo1 4y ago
    Eng manager here. Honestly not everyone is sold on remote being better much less equivalent in productivity or output compared to being in an office. Remote also requires a lot of rethinking of team dynamics, work allocation and just plain old making sure stuff is done. Make no mistake, WFH may be arguably better and more pleasant from the employee perspective, but it makes projects more difficult for the rest of the company. Yeah we're not all amazing managers that can make it work and sometimes we do need butts in seats. But also a lot of times, the ICs are slackers, loafing around, lying on tickets, getting bogged down and not speaking up, some need pair programming, some get lonely, some get emotional and miss their team, some have bad home lives and office setups. But yeah sure, blaming it all on evil companies and their supposed sunk cost fallacy investments into real estate is the easy answer, so let's do that.
    - np- 4y ago
      > Eng manager here. Honestly not everyone is sold on remote being better much less equivalent in productivity or output compared to being in an office. Ad an IC, I would have potentially believed this if the past two years where everyone was working from home wasn’t anything but unbridled success for the tech industry. Companies literally can’t hire us fast enough right now, and yet there are really still some managers out there wondering about productivity and output? How about looking at the big picture? > But also a lot of times, the ICs are slackers, loafing around, lying on tickets, getting bogged down and not speaking up Again, this is purely about controlling others. If your IC is not performant, there are ways of addressing that like adults with performance and goal reviews, improvement plans, mentoring, etc. Requiring them to come in so they have adult supervision makes me chuckle. Are managers supposed to be like daycare supervisors of children or something? And I’m not trying to rail on you personally, maybe I’m more triggered by my own management, but this whole post reads to me like such typical management speak of “we tried nothing and we are all out of ideas”
      - LunaSea 4y ago
        > Companies literally can’t hire us fast enough right now This always been the case. > Are managers supposed to be like daycare supervisors of children or something? Sometimes, yes. Not every adult behaves like a responsible adult.
- woevdbz 4y ago
  I'm with you there, it just happens not to be the same with everyone. Some folks have very complicated home situations, living with family they don't get along with, living with roommates that are fun, loud, and work for competitors, living with boyfriend/girlfriend that they're having a falling out with, etc. Some folks have demons of their own that they can't deal with without social pressure. People with alcohol abuse problems for example, since nobody can smell your breath on videoconference, might have trouble not day drinking when they're at home with their stash all day. Finally and perhaps most importantly, it is a very different experience for kids coming out of college or very fresh in the industry not to have any folks they can easily turn to for advice they'd otherwise have gotten from work colleagues. Work advice, career advice, life in the city kind of advice, you name it - especially if you moved cities or countries for your career, the workplace is a really important factor in helping you get settled. I'm not saying on balance these would tilt things in favor of working from home or the office, but I'd encourage you to ask around coworkers how they feel in order to get a sense of what other situations might be like.
  - zmmmmm 4y ago
    thanks, your points are really well made It's an interesting aspect of the whole situation that many people currently are in living arrangements that they may never have planned if they thought remote working was on the cards. We definitely have to be sensitive to those that have highly adverse circumstances, especially where that translates to being yet another form of discrimination or reinforcement of privilege. Going forward I can see this being quite transformative for society in general as people seek out living arrangements that favor WFH as it becomes normalised. I feel like housing that offers segregated spaces for work and living etc are going to be highly prioritised.
Sateeshm 4y ago
This was exactly my problem pre-covid. Just couldn't focus at office and end up doing most of the core work from home in the evenings. It was very unsustainable.

by nextos 4y ago

zmmmmm 4y ago

> it is really hard to find a company that doesn't try to cram you into an open plan office with at least half a dozen people exactly I'd be fine to go into the office but don't be under the illusion I'm going to accept materially worse working conditions in order to do it. I guess it isn't the same for everyone, but my home office is a very high bar to beat and it makes a real difference to my productivity and mental well being to be there.

nomdenator 4y ago
I wonder what I'm missing in this concept. You would think that the people in charge would see that real estate is an unnecessary expense, where applicable. Also, I've been to a lot of meetings where we were told "there are other things people value in work besides money". Maybe being able to manage your own work environment and save gas and time fits in that slot. A content, well rested workforce would be better IMO than one that's frazzled and is getting less out of their employment than they know is possible. I'm at the age where I see Time as more valuable than anything, really.
- jonathankoren 4y ago
  > You would think that the people in charge would see that real estate is an unnecessary expense, where applicable. Some real estate is a sunk cost, and the execs doubling down on it. Apple and Google both dropped 2 or 3 billion combined on fancy new offices just before the pandemic. You can’t sell those buildings, their too big, and they’re not subdivided well enough to rent out parts of them, so everyone comes back to work
  - WWLink 4y ago
    Apple's HQ campus is an interesting one because it's only a small percentage of their employees that actually work there. I imagine if they downsized their silicon valley properties down to infinite loop and the ring building, they'd still be able to easily fill them up with people who like working onsite, conference rooms, meeting spaces, labs, etc. I am not personally aware but I do remember hearing they had office spaces all over the place because they don't have enough room on the main campuses for all of the employees.
    - jonathankoren 4y ago
      Yeah, they still have a lot of offices spread out all over Cupertino.
- zo1 4y ago
  Eng manager here. Honestly not everyone is sold on remote being better much less equivalent in productivity or output compared to being in an office. Remote also requires a lot of rethinking of team dynamics, work allocation and just plain old making sure stuff is done. Make no mistake, WFH may be arguably better and more pleasant from the employee perspective, but it makes projects more difficult for the rest of the company. Yeah we're not all amazing managers that can make it work and sometimes we do need butts in seats. But also a lot of times, the ICs are slackers, loafing around, lying on tickets, getting bogged down and not speaking up, some need pair programming, some get lonely, some get emotional and miss their team, some have bad home lives and office setups. But yeah sure, blaming it all on evil companies and their supposed sunk cost fallacy investments into real estate is the easy answer, so let's do that.
  - np- 4y ago
    > Eng manager here. Honestly not everyone is sold on remote being better much less equivalent in productivity or output compared to being in an office. Ad an IC, I would have potentially believed this if the past two years where everyone was working from home wasn’t anything but unbridled success for the tech industry. Companies literally can’t hire us fast enough right now, and yet there are really still some managers out there wondering about productivity and output? How about looking at the big picture? > But also a lot of times, the ICs are slackers, loafing around, lying on tickets, getting bogged down and not speaking up Again, this is purely about controlling others. If your IC is not performant, there are ways of addressing that like adults with performance and goal reviews, improvement plans, mentoring, etc. Requiring them to come in so they have adult supervision makes me chuckle. Are managers supposed to be like daycare supervisors of children or something? And I’m not trying to rail on you personally, maybe I’m more triggered by my own management, but this whole post reads to me like such typical management speak of “we tried nothing and we are all out of ideas”
    - LunaSea 4y ago
      > Companies literally can’t hire us fast enough right now This always been the case. > Are managers supposed to be like daycare supervisors of children or something? Sometimes, yes. Not every adult behaves like a responsible adult.
woevdbz 4y ago
I'm with you there, it just happens not to be the same with everyone. Some folks have very complicated home situations, living with family they don't get along with, living with roommates that are fun, loud, and work for competitors, living with boyfriend/girlfriend that they're having a falling out with, etc. Some folks have demons of their own that they can't deal with without social pressure. People with alcohol abuse problems for example, since nobody can smell your breath on videoconference, might have trouble not day drinking when they're at home with their stash all day. Finally and perhaps most importantly, it is a very different experience for kids coming out of college or very fresh in the industry not to have any folks they can easily turn to for advice they'd otherwise have gotten from work colleagues. Work advice, career advice, life in the city kind of advice, you name it - especially if you moved cities or countries for your career, the workplace is a really important factor in helping you get settled. I'm not saying on balance these would tilt things in favor of working from home or the office, but I'd encourage you to ask around coworkers how they feel in order to get a sense of what other situations might be like.
- zmmmmm 4y ago
  thanks, your points are really well made It's an interesting aspect of the whole situation that many people currently are in living arrangements that they may never have planned if they thought remote working was on the cards. We definitely have to be sensitive to those that have highly adverse circumstances, especially where that translates to being yet another form of discrimination or reinforcement of privilege. Going forward I can see this being quite transformative for society in general as people seek out living arrangements that favor WFH as it becomes normalised. I feel like housing that offers segregated spaces for work and living etc are going to be highly prioritised.

Sateeshm 4y ago

This was exactly my problem pre-covid. Just couldn't focus at office and end up doing most of the core work from home in the evenings. It was very unsustainable.