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You keep telling me that the AUMF is unconstitutional. Where is the court ruling? This whole conversation began on the question of whether it was legal or not.
by trevorboaconstr 4y ago
You keep telling me that the AUMF is unconstitutional. Where is the court ruling?
This whole conversation began on the question of whether it was legal or not.
> Using the "global war" terminology literally justifies assassinating some guy in Cleveland or Detroit or Seattle too.
I literally just explained to you the difference.
> It was also written specifically to constrain its use to those who directly conspired against the US on 9/11. Anwar Al-Awlaki had nothing to do with planning or participating in 9/11.
No, that’s not true.
“ SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) <<NOTE: President.>> In General.--That the President is
authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those
nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized,
committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11,
2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any
future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such
nations, organizations or persons.”
Al-Awlaki falls under the umbrella as outlined in the actual document.
> It's quite clearly unconstitutional. Rather than quoting the war criminals responsible for the assassination as proof that it's legal, why not show me which part of the Constitution you think justifies putting US citizens on a hit list and denying them their rights.
I quite clearly outlined to you a situation in which constitutional rights would not be afforded in my comment above. A position supported by the supreme court.
But just to be clear:
First,
In Hamdi, A plurality of the Supreme Court use the Matthews V Eldridge bouncing test to analyze the fifth amendment due process rights of a US citizen captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan and detained in the United States who wish to challenge the governments assertion that he was a part of enemy forces, explaining that “the process do in any given instance is determined by Wayne the private interest that will be affected by the official action against the government certain interest including the function involved and the bird is the government with face and providing greater process.”
[542 US at 529] [Mathews V. Eldridge, 424 US 319, 335 (1976).
Although the circumstances of war as the Hamdi plurality observed, the risk of erroneous deprivation of a citizens liberty the absence of sufficient process is… very real, 542 US at 530, the polarity also recognizes that the realities of combat render certain uses of force necessary in appropriate… including against US citizens who have become part of enemy forces in the due process analysis need not blink at those realities id. at 531.
realities of combat and the weight of the government's interest in using an authorized means of lethal force against this enemy are such that the Constitution would not require the government to provide further process to the U.S. person before using such force. Cf. Hamdi 542 U.S. at 535
Second,
The Supreme Court has made clear that the constitutionality of a seizure is determined by bouncing the nature in quality of the intrusion on the individuals fourth amendment interest against the importance of the governmental interest alleged to justify the intrusion [Tennessee V Gardner, 471 US 1, 8 (1985] accord Scott v. Harris, 550 US 372, 383 (2007).
Where high-level government officials have determined that a capture operation overseas in feasible at the target person is a dangerous enemy forces and engage in activities that post continued and eminent threat to US persons or interest the use of weeks of lethal force we’re not violate the fourth amendment and those that intrusion of any fourth amendment interest would be outweighed by the importance of the governmental interest that justified intrusion, [Garner, 471, US at 8].
Lastly-
“In applying this variant of the public authority justification to the contemplated operation, we note as an initial matter that DoD would undertake the operation pursuant to Executive war powers that Congress has expressly authorized. SeeYoungstown & Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S.579,635 (1952) (Jackson, I., concurring) ( When the President acts pursuant to an express or implied authorization of Congress, his authority is at its maximum , for it includes all that he possesses in his own right plus all that Congress can delegate."). By authorizing the use of force against organizations” that planned, authorized, and committed the September 11th attacks, Congress clearly authorized the President's use of necessary and appropriate force against al- Qaida forces, because al-Qaida carried out the September attacks. See Authorization for Use ofMilitary Force ( . L.No. 107-40, 115 Stat. 224, 2 a) (2001) (providing that the President may use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations
or persons,in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States 27 And, as we have explained, supra at 9, a by such nations, organizations, or persons ) .decision-makercould reasonably conclude thatthis leaderofAQAP forces ispart ofal-Qaida forces. Alternatively, and as we have further explained supraat 10n.5,the AUMF applies with
respect to forces associated with al Qaida that are engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or its coalition partners, and a decision-maker could reasonably conclude that the AQAP forces of a which al-Aulaqi is a leader are
" with al Qaida forces for purposes of the AUMF. On associated
either view, DoD would carry out its contemplated operation against a leader of an organization that is within the scope of the AUMF, and therefore would in that respect be operating inaccord with a grant of statutory authority.”
- yucky 4y ago>You keep telling me that the AUMF is unconstitutional. Due Process. Learn it. >I literally just explained to you the difference. No, you didn't. There is nothing in the AUMF that says a target can't be killed in the US, hence the "global" designation. >This whole conversation began on the question of whether it was legal or not. By definition, if a law does not pass constitutional muster, then it is not legitimate. The AUMF as implemented here was nothing more than an attempt to withhold Due Process from a US citizen. It's clear you think a text wall written by the guilty party will prevent me from pointing out that you are unable to show how assassinating a US citizen without Due Process is constitutional. Show me how Al-Awlaki got his Constitutionally guaranteed right to Due Process. I'll wait.
- trevorboaconstr 4y agoAlright man. I can tell you have a big stake in this. Obviously you’re not reading/engaging with the source material. Otherwise you wouldn’t be asking questions that have been answered. I gave you two court settled situations in which the fourth and fifth amendment don’t apply in the context of imminent threat. The first, for example, law enforcements confrontation with a dangerous individual. Second, the impossible weight put on the govt to observe due process in the face of imminent threats. Please refer to the court cases above. They are cited for a reason. Those are not my words. They are not the words of the executive branch. Those cases/opinions are the words of the judiciary. Refer to them. If Al-awlaki hadn’t been a combatant in a foreign force targeting the US, this may not have applied. But he was. If he had been in the US the govt couldn't have said that they were unable to attempt to apprehend him—-it wouldn't have been believable. Being in Yemen, and the fact that both the DOD and CIA said it was not possible to launch an operation (given they had attempted, which they said they had) for capture due to extraordinary circumstances, it was not in the govts court to provide due process in the face of imminent threat. In the case of Al-awlaki the self-defense justification holds merit when the United States' response to an armed attack is necessary and proportionate. The United States can invoke self-defense prior to an actual attack. U.S. citizens who serve as soldiers for the enemy can be shot without trial during military operations but must be afforded a trial as traitors if they can be captured (Which the military apparatus deemed not possible). For example, before the United States killed him, Al-Aulaqi should have been given notice that he was wanted for treason, or another crime, and that if he refused to return and stand trial, then he would be considered a military target. Functionally, A1-Aulaqi had notice that he was on a kill list. The media had been abuzz about killing him, and his father even filed an unsuccessful lawsuit on his behalf.138 Nonetheless, he did not return to the United States for trial. You can’t ‘assassinate’ an individual once they enter the throngs of a foreign force. They are considered a legitimate military target. targeted killing" denotes a state's intentional and premeditated use of lethal force through agents acting under color of law against a specific, reasonably unobtainable individual. Targeted killing and assassination are similar but distinct operations that commentators often conflate. assassinations are killings that are politically motivated and use subterfuge, while targeted killings are military strikes. This distinction is important because President Ronald Reagan's Executive Order 12,333 bans assassination. Please, just read the documents. Thanks.