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I get people who want to work from home. I get people who want to work from the office. I get people who want to do hybrid. The one group of people I don’t get

by atty 4y ago

I get people who want to work from home. I get people who want to work from the office. I get people who want to do hybrid. The one group of people I don’t get are the ones who suggest people should be forced to work from the office, and not able to decide for themselves. (Obviously it depends on the role - if you’re doing hardware design you need to go in sometimes, of course.) I see some people in the macrumors comments saying “good riddance” like he’s being ungrateful or something. He’s a manager who’s standing up for what he believes is best for his team, and when he was overruled he did the only thing he could do to protest - quit. Good for him, and hopefully others follow suite. And as someone who works in the same field, he is absolutely right. ML teams right now are absolutely starved for good talent. Apple should be doing everything it can to hire and retain these people, including letting them live where they want.

paulcole 4y ago
>The one group of people I don’t get are the ones who suggest people should be forced to work from the office, and not able to decide for themselves 1. Is anyone suggesting this? Or do you mean “ones” as in companies mandating a return-to-office? 2. I mean isn’t that what work is? Being told what to do by somebody else in exchange for money and deciding if you’re going to do it or not? 3. Personally, I don’t get the people on here who pop off with “remote work is just a no-brained for everyone.”
- atty 4y ago
  1) Unfortunately yes, I have seen some of that. I mean both the companies and the sideline quarterbacks. 2) Of course, but I’d hope most companies would be smart enough to be paying for productive output, not for bodily location. 3) Agreed. I personally prefer remote work, but I know many people who prefer going in - either to better structure their day, or to see others, and they should be able to do that. And I believe a competent company structure can support both of those work patterns. (At companies large enough for that sort of complexity)
  - paulcole 4y ago
    > 2) Of course, but I’d hope most companies would be smart enough to be paying for productive output, not for bodily location I think on this point, you’re seeing companies who value control, consistency, and predictability over maximum productivity. They just think that they’d rather get less done overall and have more control over the people they hire because they know not everyone will be more productive in a remote environment. There’s nothing wrong w/ that. It’s not a decision everyone will agree w/ but that’s why resignation letters exist.
benrbray 4y ago
> The one group of people I don’t get are the ones who suggest people should be forced to work from the office, and not able to decide for themselves. I guess I can give a bit of perspective. I don't think people should be "forced" into 100% office work, but I can say that as a junior engineer, I am wildly more productive when I'm in the office with my co-workers compared to at home alone. I graduated into the pandemic and my first job out of school was full-remote. My company had no idea how to effectively manage remote workers and after two years I knew barely anything about my coworkers except their names, and I could feel my career stagnating. WFH was lonely, inefficient, and since my home was my office, I had no escape from the stress of work. Whenever I was at home I felt guilty for not working. I recently quit that job and started a new one. The first thing I asked prospective employers was whether they had office space I could work from. I'm much, much happier working from the office and benefit greatly from my other coworkers who choose to commute. Part of the problem is that the benefits of in-office work are long-term and asymmetrical. You might not benefit from being in the office, but other people might benefit greatly from having you there. Senior engineers should consider passing down knowledge as part of their responsibilities -- there might be ways to accomplish that remotely, but a lot of that transfer happens organically when colleagues share meals, walk outside together, etc.. Being in the office also gives me a chance to interact with people at the same company who I don't directly work with -- sales people, office managers, etc.. For me, WFH takes all the enjoyment out of work, leaving only the bad stuff.
- dunefox 4y ago
  > I am wildly more productive when I'm in the office with my co-workers compared to at home alone. I get next to nothing done during a whole day in the office. Over 2 1/2 hours commute a day, and then I have to sit there with (my own) ANC headphones on because people talk all day. Then there's coordinating where and when to go eat which can take up to half an hour. People come around to talk. I'm basically at 10-20% of productivity compared to WFH.
  - benrbray 4y ago
    That's a rough commute indeed. I do wish American cities (for instance, idk where you are) made it simpler to live close to with without sacrificing too much in other areas of life. It's one reason I now live in Tokyo. Other than the commute, I think those are all things that a cohesive team should be able to resolve. It's definitely important to set boundaries in a shared space. I don't agree that the answer is to entirely retreat from the office though, as much as I do understand that inclination. Also, just a thought: your colleagues might find the discussions they have with you to be really valuable to their own productivity / job satisfaction.

by atty 4y ago

paulcole 4y ago

>The one group of people I don’t get are the ones who suggest people should be forced to work from the office, and not able to decide for themselves 1. Is anyone suggesting this? Or do you mean “ones” as in companies mandating a return-to-office? 2. I mean isn’t that what work is? Being told what to do by somebody else in exchange for money and deciding if you’re going to do it or not? 3. Personally, I don’t get the people on here who pop off with “remote work is just a no-brained for everyone.”

atty 4y ago
1) Unfortunately yes, I have seen some of that. I mean both the companies and the sideline quarterbacks. 2) Of course, but I’d hope most companies would be smart enough to be paying for productive output, not for bodily location. 3) Agreed. I personally prefer remote work, but I know many people who prefer going in - either to better structure their day, or to see others, and they should be able to do that. And I believe a competent company structure can support both of those work patterns. (At companies large enough for that sort of complexity)
- paulcole 4y ago
  > 2) Of course, but I’d hope most companies would be smart enough to be paying for productive output, not for bodily location I think on this point, you’re seeing companies who value control, consistency, and predictability over maximum productivity. They just think that they’d rather get less done overall and have more control over the people they hire because they know not everyone will be more productive in a remote environment. There’s nothing wrong w/ that. It’s not a decision everyone will agree w/ but that’s why resignation letters exist.

benrbray 4y ago

> The one group of people I don’t get are the ones who suggest people should be forced to work from the office, and not able to decide for themselves. I guess I can give a bit of perspective. I don't think people should be "forced" into 100% office work, but I can say that as a junior engineer, I am wildly more productive when I'm in the office with my co-workers compared to at home alone. I graduated into the pandemic and my first job out of school was full-remote. My company had no idea how to effectively manage remote workers and after two years I knew barely anything about my coworkers except their names, and I could feel my career stagnating. WFH was lonely, inefficient, and since my home was my office, I had no escape from the stress of work. Whenever I was at home I felt guilty for not working. I recently quit that job and started a new one. The first thing I asked prospective employers was whether they had office space I could work from. I'm much, much happier working from the office and benefit greatly from my other coworkers who choose to commute. Part of the problem is that the benefits of in-office work are long-term and asymmetrical. You might not benefit from being in the office, but other people might benefit greatly from having you there. Senior engineers should consider passing down knowledge as part of their responsibilities -- there might be ways to accomplish that remotely, but a lot of that transfer happens organically when colleagues share meals, walk outside together, etc.. Being in the office also gives me a chance to interact with people at the same company who I don't directly work with -- sales people, office managers, etc.. For me, WFH takes all the enjoyment out of work, leaving only the bad stuff.

dunefox 4y ago
> I am wildly more productive when I'm in the office with my co-workers compared to at home alone. I get next to nothing done during a whole day in the office. Over 2 1/2 hours commute a day, and then I have to sit there with (my own) ANC headphones on because people talk all day. Then there's coordinating where and when to go eat which can take up to half an hour. People come around to talk. I'm basically at 10-20% of productivity compared to WFH.
- benrbray 4y ago
  That's a rough commute indeed. I do wish American cities (for instance, idk where you are) made it simpler to live close to with without sacrificing too much in other areas of life. It's one reason I now live in Tokyo. Other than the commute, I think those are all things that a cohesive team should be able to resolve. It's definitely important to set boundaries in a shared space. I don't agree that the answer is to entirely retreat from the office though, as much as I do understand that inclination. Also, just a thought: your colleagues might find the discussions they have with you to be really valuable to their own productivity / job satisfaction.