5 ms·

I'm trying to hire for a position right now and it has dragged on for months for two reasons: 1) WFH is now limited to 1 day per week, and a 3 month probationa

I'm trying to hire for a position right now and it has dragged on for months for two reasons: 1) WFH is now limited to 1 day per week, and a 3 month probationary period where new hires don't even get that. 2) Salary. It's still a job seeker's market and my workplace is not keeping pace. It's spec'ed for 3 years of experience but salary is about the median for a new graduate w/o professional experience. I'm happy to train someone but if I rework the job class to allow for new grads then HR will lower the starting salary. So, I'm hoping to find someone who's a new grad but had a part time job or internship or any other non-coursework experience the could be even the least bit argued as adding up to the required experience. (the position is basically a data wrangler / sql jockey / light analysis position, but it directly supports the main revenue-generating operations of the organization so there is real $$$ lost by having this position empty. ::Grrrrr:: end rant.)

wanderingmind 5y ago
What you need is a new job where they don't treat your skill as a cost center
- ianai 5y ago
  “directly supports the main revenue-generating operations of the organization so there is real $$$ lost by having this position empty” How companies consider that a cost center is beyond me. But I’ve seen them do it.
  - worik 5y ago
    Oh golly, how right you are. > How companies consider that a cost center is beyond me. But I’ve seen them do it. I may have an answer: Because of our fetish with metrics. It is possible to measure the cost of an engineer or computer programmer. This can be assigned a cost which is arbitrarily precise. Calculating teh benefit is usually not so easy. So the decision makers (rational beings, just mislead by an intellectually bankrupt management philosophy) concentrate on what they can count. This is McNamara's fallacy
    - Lio 5y ago
      There's also a tendency for humans to over optimise the wrong things. John Sturman has a business game to illustrate this called the Beer Game[1]. It's supposed to illustrate shocks to a supply chain with limited knowledge of how the rest of the system is behaving. The players in charge of their part of the system try to reduce costs to get a better score but in doing so often catastrophically open themselves up to shocks in the system. IMHO the same thing is true for managers and accountants trying to reduce costs in their development teams. If you get it wrong you can get a short term gain and long term problem that kills the company. 1. https://web.mit.edu/jsterman/www/SDG/beergame.html https://web.mit.edu/jsterman/www/SDG/beergame.html
      - ianai 5y ago
        Might be as simple as the decision maker assuming they won’t be around for the catastrophe. Or outright malice, for any number of reasons. “Hate of job” is a widespread phenomenon that people don’t even think they have to justify.
  - rubidium 5y ago
    It’s simple. If you’re in operations it’s all about increasing operating margin (omx). The simplest way to do that is to cut op expenses until you scrape bottom and op revenue dips. Then you adjust, firefight, and find other op expenses to cut.
    - Foobar8568 5y ago
      Or hire contractors like they do here in Europe. So you go from spending up to 150kCHF for a lambda software engineering to paying 250kCHF to a consultancy. But the company "invest". Doesn't matter if that contractor will end up working there for 4 years or more, that's call investment in the finance book or Switzerland is a at will country (but with notice period). Just madness.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  Fortunately my boss doesn't treat it as a cost center, she knows her division is the revenue provider in both acquiring & preventing churn. She's fighting that battle now to make the chief boss understand that too, but it's a slog.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
davidgerard 5y ago
this sounds like your own resume should be in play, you have your exit interview already written out
- ineedasername 5y ago
  Yeah, I could probably get +50% if I went job hopping, but the non salary benefits are very good, work is not stressful-- 40 hours, rarely the expectations of more than that, though it does happen maybe one a month. Very good PTO, 5 minute commute... So it's all an extremely good work life balance, which has always been the most of mportant factor for me if the money is otherwise sufficient to cover things.
  - sodapopcan 5y ago
    I get paid very well for 36 hour weeks (half-day Fridays) in a low stress atmosphere with no expectation of over time. All I'm saying is that there is no harm looking around as there are plenty of jobs like that out there.
    - ineedasername 5y ago
      Good point... I'm very comfortable where I am and really like the work & mission of my organization, so I haven't looked around much. Maybe I should, maybe my situation isn't as unique as I though it was....
    - ShamelessC 5y ago
      I work 20 hours a week now, fully remote, making (a little bit) more than I used to doing 40. Granted, it's a machine learning gig and I took the pandemic to brush up on these skills, but it's definitely achievable in this market to have a good work/life balance.
      - ineedasername 5y ago
        Contract work?
hogrider 5y ago
I hope you tell who you eventually hire it's a shitty salary because it sounds they would only take the job if they don't know what they're worth.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  I'm very upfront when I schedule the interview, give them a range when we set the time and if they're still interested we proceed. It's education analytics, so there's a little bit of "doing it for the mission" that gets people who are willing to make a little less because the job really has a very direct impact on students' success and lives. My work reduces student debt and increases success rates and identifies those individuals most at risk of having difficulties so others can make proper targeted interventions. The work environment is laid back, 40 hour weeks & rarely any expectation of going over that so there can be a very good work/life balance. Benefits are pretty good too: very good retirement plan matching contributions, above average health insurance, 37 days PTO each year. So I need to find the right candidate that appreciates those things even if they could easily get 30%+ salary somewhere else. TCP where I work isn't to far off from other opportunities if the candidate considers & values those other benefits. And again I am very upfront about that, and even explain these factors to them before interviews. I want people who know what they're signing up for, and not waste each other's time. It's a position that will give them lots of hands on experience to easily get the next step up in their career after doing this job for 3 years or so. They can grown from a basic analyst as described above into creating more sophisticated predictive modeling, bringing them up closer to my level. I view my role as managing someone as 1) to keep away from them as much as possible so they can do their work and I can do mine instead of sitting in meetings. And 2) to prepare them for their next job, their next step in their career. Because that's what a good manager does, and because by preparing them that way it means their last year working for me will be at a very high level of productivity, making my life easier as well. But the candidate really has to be the right sort of person at the right stage in their life, someone looking for these things. And if my organization would ease up & recognize the job market requires at least a 15% increase in base salary I'd probably not have so much difficulty finding such a person.
  - 5y ago
shagie 5y ago
> It's spec'ed for 3 years of experience but salary is about the median for a new graduate w/o professional experience. How does the company's revenue per employee compare to the offered salary?
- ineedasername 5y ago
  Back of the envelope, the offered salary is roughly $5000-$10,000 less than the average revenue per employee. I'm not familiar with thinking about salaries in these terms though, how is this relevant?
  - dymk 5y ago
    I’m surprised such a company isn’t going out of business. That’s a very low amount to make per-head for software engineers. Do they make up for it in volume?
    - ineedasername 5y ago
      Not a software dev or inherently tech-base business. Vast majority of employees are not in a tech related positions. I'm in Higher Ed analytics, embedded at a high level in an operational division at a university. So, maximizing revenue isn't a primary goal. It's certainly a secondary concern, some amount of "profit" is necessary to plow back into resources for students & researchers and capex, but if we're making a ton of profit it would kind of mean we're charging students more than we need to and putting a higher debt burden on them. Some schools, unfortunately, take that path but not where I work. We are honestly very focused on doing what's best for the student, even at the cost of leaving some easy money on the table. Minimizing student debt burden is a primary target metric for the university. Of course it's much more complicated than that though, countless variables and interlocking & sometimes competing goals & requirements. And while Higher Ed isn't perfect and could use some disruption, quality instruction doesn't have much economy of scale. Sure, a very self-motivated person can plow through self-paced college courses without a lot of handholding or overhead costs to get them through, but that's not the majority of students. For most students the ability to get quality help along the way is inversely proportional to class size and directly proportional to support resources. So, high labor costs. Though again, some amount of disruption could probably improve things. As would the realization that not everyone needs to go to a traditional 4-year college, that for many people learning a skilled trade is both a faster path to financial self-sufficiency and better suited to their interests. But that's all a bit off topic so I'll end it there.
01100011 5y ago
This may change soon. Meta and Netflix reportedly have hiring freezes in place now. Other companies are cutting staff. The later half of 2022 may bring significant changes to the job market(along with many other things).
- dafty4 5y ago
  Thanks for posting the heads-up re: Meta and Netflix; in the latter case I’m not surprised (or maybe they could just reduce the obscenely high salaries they overpay so they can feel superior to other members of FAANG, which doesn’t really fool anyone about their engineering prowess (they’re a content company, not an engineering/product/big-cloud company like the others, and everyone knows it). That would also allow them to get rid of this let-a-person-go-after-a-few-months-but-don’t-worry-there’s-warmth-and-respect BS. Regarding your 2nd statement: “Other companies are cutting staff”; you mean in big tech already? Who?
  - bagacrap 4y ago
    Uber
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
8organicbits 5y ago
You should resync with HR on that salary. If it's below market, the company is losing money while it's vacant, and your not able to fill it then you have proof the salary or other benefits are too low. Sort of an efficient market theory: if it was a good offer, someone would take it.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  Yeah, I tried that, there's a small amount of wiggle room but not much, because they said "it wouldn't be fair to our current workers in that classification that aren't making as much". A poor answer. Ignores market conditions and says they know they're underpaying other people too, many of whom are probably looking for a new job as a result. I'm embedded in an operational division, but we've lost a very significant % of our core IT folks as well.

wanderingmind 5y ago

What you need is a new job where they don't treat your skill as a cost center

ianai 5y ago
“directly supports the main revenue-generating operations of the organization so there is real $$$ lost by having this position empty” How companies consider that a cost center is beyond me. But I’ve seen them do it.
- worik 5y ago
  Oh golly, how right you are. > How companies consider that a cost center is beyond me. But I’ve seen them do it. I may have an answer: Because of our fetish with metrics. It is possible to measure the cost of an engineer or computer programmer. This can be assigned a cost which is arbitrarily precise. Calculating teh benefit is usually not so easy. So the decision makers (rational beings, just mislead by an intellectually bankrupt management philosophy) concentrate on what they can count. This is McNamara's fallacy
  - Lio 5y ago
    There's also a tendency for humans to over optimise the wrong things. John Sturman has a business game to illustrate this called the Beer Game[1]. It's supposed to illustrate shocks to a supply chain with limited knowledge of how the rest of the system is behaving. The players in charge of their part of the system try to reduce costs to get a better score but in doing so often catastrophically open themselves up to shocks in the system. IMHO the same thing is true for managers and accountants trying to reduce costs in their development teams. If you get it wrong you can get a short term gain and long term problem that kills the company. 1. https://web.mit.edu/jsterman/www/SDG/beergame.html https://web.mit.edu/jsterman/www/SDG/beergame.html
    - ianai 5y ago
      Might be as simple as the decision maker assuming they won’t be around for the catastrophe. Or outright malice, for any number of reasons. “Hate of job” is a widespread phenomenon that people don’t even think they have to justify.
- rubidium 5y ago
  It’s simple. If you’re in operations it’s all about increasing operating margin (omx). The simplest way to do that is to cut op expenses until you scrape bottom and op revenue dips. Then you adjust, firefight, and find other op expenses to cut.
  - Foobar8568 5y ago
    Or hire contractors like they do here in Europe. So you go from spending up to 150kCHF for a lambda software engineering to paying 250kCHF to a consultancy. But the company "invest". Doesn't matter if that contractor will end up working there for 4 years or more, that's call investment in the finance book or Switzerland is a at will country (but with notice period). Just madness.
ineedasername 5y ago
Fortunately my boss doesn't treat it as a cost center, she knows her division is the revenue provider in both acquiring & preventing churn. She's fighting that battle now to make the chief boss understand that too, but it's a slog.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

davidgerard 5y ago

this sounds like your own resume should be in play, you have your exit interview already written out

ineedasername 5y ago
Yeah, I could probably get +50% if I went job hopping, but the non salary benefits are very good, work is not stressful-- 40 hours, rarely the expectations of more than that, though it does happen maybe one a month. Very good PTO, 5 minute commute... So it's all an extremely good work life balance, which has always been the most of mportant factor for me if the money is otherwise sufficient to cover things.
- sodapopcan 5y ago
  I get paid very well for 36 hour weeks (half-day Fridays) in a low stress atmosphere with no expectation of over time. All I'm saying is that there is no harm looking around as there are plenty of jobs like that out there.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    Good point... I'm very comfortable where I am and really like the work & mission of my organization, so I haven't looked around much. Maybe I should, maybe my situation isn't as unique as I though it was....
  - ShamelessC 5y ago
    I work 20 hours a week now, fully remote, making (a little bit) more than I used to doing 40. Granted, it's a machine learning gig and I took the pandemic to brush up on these skills, but it's definitely achievable in this market to have a good work/life balance.
    - ineedasername 5y ago
      Contract work?

hogrider 5y ago

I hope you tell who you eventually hire it's a shitty salary because it sounds they would only take the job if they don't know what they're worth.

ineedasername 5y ago
I'm very upfront when I schedule the interview, give them a range when we set the time and if they're still interested we proceed. It's education analytics, so there's a little bit of "doing it for the mission" that gets people who are willing to make a little less because the job really has a very direct impact on students' success and lives. My work reduces student debt and increases success rates and identifies those individuals most at risk of having difficulties so others can make proper targeted interventions. The work environment is laid back, 40 hour weeks & rarely any expectation of going over that so there can be a very good work/life balance. Benefits are pretty good too: very good retirement plan matching contributions, above average health insurance, 37 days PTO each year. So I need to find the right candidate that appreciates those things even if they could easily get 30%+ salary somewhere else. TCP where I work isn't to far off from other opportunities if the candidate considers & values those other benefits. And again I am very upfront about that, and even explain these factors to them before interviews. I want people who know what they're signing up for, and not waste each other's time. It's a position that will give them lots of hands on experience to easily get the next step up in their career after doing this job for 3 years or so. They can grown from a basic analyst as described above into creating more sophisticated predictive modeling, bringing them up closer to my level. I view my role as managing someone as 1) to keep away from them as much as possible so they can do their work and I can do mine instead of sitting in meetings. And 2) to prepare them for their next job, their next step in their career. Because that's what a good manager does, and because by preparing them that way it means their last year working for me will be at a very high level of productivity, making my life easier as well. But the candidate really has to be the right sort of person at the right stage in their life, someone looking for these things. And if my organization would ease up & recognize the job market requires at least a 15% increase in base salary I'd probably not have so much difficulty finding such a person.
- 5y ago

shagie 5y ago

> It's spec'ed for 3 years of experience but salary is about the median for a new graduate w/o professional experience. How does the company's revenue per employee compare to the offered salary?

ineedasername 5y ago
Back of the envelope, the offered salary is roughly $5000-$10,000 less than the average revenue per employee. I'm not familiar with thinking about salaries in these terms though, how is this relevant?
- dymk 5y ago
  I’m surprised such a company isn’t going out of business. That’s a very low amount to make per-head for software engineers. Do they make up for it in volume?
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    Not a software dev or inherently tech-base business. Vast majority of employees are not in a tech related positions. I'm in Higher Ed analytics, embedded at a high level in an operational division at a university. So, maximizing revenue isn't a primary goal. It's certainly a secondary concern, some amount of "profit" is necessary to plow back into resources for students & researchers and capex, but if we're making a ton of profit it would kind of mean we're charging students more than we need to and putting a higher debt burden on them. Some schools, unfortunately, take that path but not where I work. We are honestly very focused on doing what's best for the student, even at the cost of leaving some easy money on the table. Minimizing student debt burden is a primary target metric for the university. Of course it's much more complicated than that though, countless variables and interlocking & sometimes competing goals & requirements. And while Higher Ed isn't perfect and could use some disruption, quality instruction doesn't have much economy of scale. Sure, a very self-motivated person can plow through self-paced college courses without a lot of handholding or overhead costs to get them through, but that's not the majority of students. For most students the ability to get quality help along the way is inversely proportional to class size and directly proportional to support resources. So, high labor costs. Though again, some amount of disruption could probably improve things. As would the realization that not everyone needs to go to a traditional 4-year college, that for many people learning a skilled trade is both a faster path to financial self-sufficiency and better suited to their interests. But that's all a bit off topic so I'll end it there.

01100011 5y ago

This may change soon. Meta and Netflix reportedly have hiring freezes in place now. Other companies are cutting staff. The later half of 2022 may bring significant changes to the job market(along with many other things).

dafty4 5y ago
Thanks for posting the heads-up re: Meta and Netflix; in the latter case I’m not surprised (or maybe they could just reduce the obscenely high salaries they overpay so they can feel superior to other members of FAANG, which doesn’t really fool anyone about their engineering prowess (they’re a content company, not an engineering/product/big-cloud company like the others, and everyone knows it). That would also allow them to get rid of this let-a-person-go-after-a-few-months-but-don’t-worry-there’s-warmth-and-respect BS. Regarding your 2nd statement: “Other companies are cutting staff”; you mean in big tech already? Who?
- bagacrap 4y ago
  Uber
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

8organicbits 5y ago

You should resync with HR on that salary. If it's below market, the company is losing money while it's vacant, and your not able to fill it then you have proof the salary or other benefits are too low. Sort of an efficient market theory: if it was a good offer, someone would take it.

ineedasername 5y ago
Yeah, I tried that, there's a small amount of wiggle room but not much, because they said "it wouldn't be fair to our current workers in that classification that aren't making as much". A poor answer. Ignores market conditions and says they know they're underpaying other people too, many of whom are probably looking for a new job as a result. I'm embedded in an operational division, but we've lost a very significant % of our core IT folks as well.