4 ms·

In the USA, a "tank" refers to a "main battle tank", or the M1 Abrams. In Germany, "tank" is translated to "Panzer", which roughly means armored vehicles. So "

In the USA, a "tank" refers to a "main battle tank", or the M1 Abrams. In Germany, "tank" is translated to "Panzer", which roughly means armored vehicles. So "Flugabwehrkanonepanzer" (aka: Flakpanzer) is a Panzer. But a German-flakpanzer is NOT a USA-"tank". ---------- I think a lot of the confusion is the difference in languages. Panzer =/= tank, its just the closest word between the two languages, so we kinda sorta equate them. USA's M2 Bradley is "not a tank", but probably would be classified as a German Panzer. -------- The "proper name" is "Main Battle Tank", which does refer to a very specific kind of vehicle. ------- This is reminding me very much of the "cube rule" for sandwiches. A "hot-dog" isn't a "sandwich", its a "taco" (hot-dogs have the starch covering 3x sides, with the "top" side open). Other "tacos" include hot-dogs, subs, and slice-of-pies (pies are covered on 3 sides after all)

moron4hire 5y ago
Tacos are definitely sandwiches. Or as I usually say it, sandwiches are tacos.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Cube-rule is pretty funny. https://cuberule.com/ https://cuberule.com/ Specifically this picture: https://cuberule.com/assets/15_cube_rule.jpg https://cuberule.com/assets/15_cube_rule.jpg Of course, this rule is absurd, since it classifies hotdogs, pie, and subs as a "taco". I think the overall point remains, that no matter how you wish to "classify" things, you can always find a unique counter-example that messes up your classifications.
  - fragmede 5y ago
    I never got that as the overall point because there are definitely classification systems (especially in math) that don't have counter-examples. Hotdogs and tacos are the same, topologically speaking. We derive additional meaning between the two words because they're not the same due to bread and filling used, but topology doesn't care about that. It's entertaining because it's food and everyone has experience with that, but there's some serious math once you look into it! I guess you could classify me as a structural purist - ingredient rebel on the sandwich alignment chart. I'm guessing you're a structural neutral - ingredient purist person.
    - bombcar 5y ago
      One thing ignored is the ingredients inside - a “taco” with one huge piece of chicken or steak would seem more like some other type of food.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > One thing ignored is the ingredients inside - a “taco” with one huge piece of chicken or steak would seem more like some other type of food. A taco with one huge piece of fish inside is typically called a “fish taco”. One with a whole frankfurter inside is, apparently, a “taco de salchicha”. So I’m not sure that your theory holds up.
        Stratoscope 5y ago
        > *A taco…with a whole frankfurter inside is, apparently, a “taco de salchicha”. This brings back a bittersweet memory. A couple of months ago I was looking through the fridge to fix something for dinner. I had neglected my shopping for a few days, but I did find some hot dogs, whole wheat tortillas, fresh sauerkraut, and crunchy whole grain Dijon mustard. So we made hot dog tacos! I pan-fried the hotdogs in a bit of olive oil, and warmed the tortillas one at a time in a dry pan. As each tortilla was ready, we spread the mustard on it, added a hot dog and plenty of sauerkraut, and rolled it up. Maybe not authentic tacos de salchicha, but they were good! Why is the memory bittersweet? In a connection almost worthy of James Burke, we made the hot dog tacos on February 24, the day the Russian tanks started rolling into Ukraine.
    - pixl97 5y ago
      >definitely classification systems (especially in math) that don't have counter-examples Come on now, I want to get in an argument over the sorites paradox.
  - NineStarPoint 5y ago
    My main issue with the rule is that it calls pumpkin pie bent toast, when it is obviously a missing category of type (2) where instead of being disjoint like the sandwich, the 2 pieces of starch are connected at an edge. Likewise there should probably be a category of type (3) where all pieces of starch are joined at a corner and a category of type (4) where it’s like a type (5) but with one of the sides removed. I believe with those three additions all rotationally-unique cube configurations would be accounted for by the rule.
- a3w 5y ago
  Burgers are sandwiches. Many things are sandwiches. Earth is a sandwich since most of the time two slices of bread touch the ground at pretty-much-opposite sides[citation needed]
gherkinnn 5y ago
“Panzer” in a very general protective sense translates to “Armour”. Brustpanzer -> Chest armour. Even a turtle’s shell is a Panzer. Typically a hard enclosure protecting the main body of a thing. But not its extremities. A “helmet” is a “Helm”. Though any element can be “gepanzert”, or “armoured”. It is important to note that Panzer mostly refers to protection from violence. A civilian car is never “gepanzert”, neither is a padded skateboarder. Unless you’re mocking something. A Chelsea tractor is an Hausfrauenpanzer. One exception I can think of is the Rückenpanzer, or spine protector. In a contemporary military context, a Panzer is any armoured vehicle. The definition is indeed looser than in English. The equivalent of tank (or main battle tank, MBT) is Kampfpanzer. Fighting tank. An IFV like the M2 is a Schützenpanzer. Shooter/gunner/rifleman’s tank. But when using Panzer to describe a specific vehicle, as opposed to a general category, I too would expect it to refer to an MBT. But I could be wrong here.
- brazzy 5y ago
  > A civilian car is never “gepanzert” There most definitely are civilian cars which count as "gepanzert": https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderschutzfahrzeug https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderschutzfahrzeug - still falling under your definition of "protection from violence".
  - codeflo 5y ago
    Also more commonly/colloquially called “Panzerlimousine” — armoured limousine.
- gerdesj 5y ago
  Great response. Panzer on its own translates to (an) "armoured" (thing). I love the Chelsea tractor -> "Hausfrauenpanzer" allusion. The German might be translated as "The wife's tank" or "The missus' tank" or "Me bird's tank". The English word tank is the outlier. It's a code word for the initial concept that has stuck and unfortunately ended up as the canonical name for the thing. The word tank in English really used to mean a vessel eg a water tank. I lived in West Germany in the 1970s/80s ...
dragonwriter 5y ago
> In the USA, a “tank” refers to a “main battle tank”, or the M1 Abrams. That’s not true, though the only tanks in the current inventory in the US are MBTs. The term “tank” in the USA does encompass light tanks, like the (retired) M551 Sheridan, (canceled just before operational) M8 Buford, and the (in development) as-yet-undesignated product of the Mobile Protected Firepower project, not just MBTs.
ummonk 5y ago
A taco is mutually exclusive from a sandwich, because it’s made from folded piece of bread, rather than sliced / partially sliced which is what defines a sandwich. Hot dogs and subs are sandwiches for this reason, as are burgers. Also, “taco” is a term for a specific kind of folded bread dish - even quesadillas aren’t considered tacos. A pie is not a sandwich, taco, or quesadilla. It’s a pie.
- hirundo 5y ago
  A pie surrounded by crust is a ravioli.
  - ms4720 5y ago
    > A pie surrounded by crust is a ravioli. Dumpling
    - dgfitz 5y ago
      Empanada
      - giantrobot 5y ago
        Screw all of you now I'm hungry and there's no empanada places around.
  - mcv 5y ago
    How long do I need to boil it?
- efitz 5y ago
  So if I took a single slice of bread, and I put Welch’s grape jelly on half of one side, then I put Peter Pan crunchy peanut butter on the other half of the same side (rectangular halves, not triangular halves), and then I carefully folded the slice of bread over in half along the line where the jelly meets the peanut butter, then what do I have? I rest my case.
dogma1138 5y ago
The US/NATO equivalent term for Panzer is an AFV which encompasses all armored fighting vehicles.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Panzer is just a better name than AFV. I used to think Panzer was German for "Panther" :-)
kortilla 5y ago
> In the USA, a "tank" refers to a "main battle tank", Lol, not sure if you’re trolling here, but that’s a recursive definition.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  So "tank" is just a weasel word that poorly translates between cultures and languages. But "Main Battle Tank" translates correctly. A German Flakpanzer could be called a "German Panzer", and you can translate that to mean "German Tank" in one sense, but a Flakpanzer is NOT what the USA would ever call a tank. But if we start with the term "Main Battle Tank", or "MBT" instead, then no, the Flakpanzer is NOT a MBT. The German MBT is the Leopard 2. ------ So MBT is the more technical and proper term.
- Beldin 5y ago
  My reading was this should be read as "the colloquial term X is typically used to designate objects that fall in military jargon in the class Y". That is: GP translates from colloquial to jargon. Since these are different, in particular, semantics of words change, this definition is not recursive.
karaterobot 5y ago
He talks specifically about the etymology of the word Panzer, including its colloquial usage, in the linked article.
MichaelMoser123 5y ago
This definition of the main battle tank is very much dependent on the current military doctrine of the host country. Each army is making its own trade offs of vehicle weight/armor vs speed vs caliber of the gun. - In the US an MBT is very heavy and has a very long gun, in order destroy tanks that are very var away. - In Russia an MBT is much lighter, so as not to get stuck in the mud. - In Israel an MBT has a shorter gun and has more armor, because it really is mostly used for infantry support - but it also has to be able to stand against enemy tanks.
flohofwoe 5y ago
Since the word "tank" was just a cover word used by the Brits, IMHO the Germans should have continued to use "Traktor" for theirs ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leichttraktor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leichttraktor

moron4hire 5y ago

Tacos are definitely sandwiches. Or as I usually say it, sandwiches are tacos.

dragontamer 5y ago
Cube-rule is pretty funny. https://cuberule.com/ https://cuberule.com/ Specifically this picture: https://cuberule.com/assets/15_cube_rule.jpg https://cuberule.com/assets/15_cube_rule.jpg Of course, this rule is absurd, since it classifies hotdogs, pie, and subs as a "taco". I think the overall point remains, that no matter how you wish to "classify" things, you can always find a unique counter-example that messes up your classifications.
- fragmede 5y ago
  I never got that as the overall point because there are definitely classification systems (especially in math) that don't have counter-examples. Hotdogs and tacos are the same, topologically speaking. We derive additional meaning between the two words because they're not the same due to bread and filling used, but topology doesn't care about that. It's entertaining because it's food and everyone has experience with that, but there's some serious math once you look into it! I guess you could classify me as a structural purist - ingredient rebel on the sandwich alignment chart. I'm guessing you're a structural neutral - ingredient purist person.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    One thing ignored is the ingredients inside - a “taco” with one huge piece of chicken or steak would seem more like some other type of food.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > One thing ignored is the ingredients inside - a “taco” with one huge piece of chicken or steak would seem more like some other type of food. A taco with one huge piece of fish inside is typically called a “fish taco”. One with a whole frankfurter inside is, apparently, a “taco de salchicha”. So I’m not sure that your theory holds up.
      - Stratoscope 5y ago
        > *A taco…with a whole frankfurter inside is, apparently, a “taco de salchicha”. This brings back a bittersweet memory. A couple of months ago I was looking through the fridge to fix something for dinner. I had neglected my shopping for a few days, but I did find some hot dogs, whole wheat tortillas, fresh sauerkraut, and crunchy whole grain Dijon mustard. So we made hot dog tacos! I pan-fried the hotdogs in a bit of olive oil, and warmed the tortillas one at a time in a dry pan. As each tortilla was ready, we spread the mustard on it, added a hot dog and plenty of sauerkraut, and rolled it up. Maybe not authentic tacos de salchicha, but they were good! Why is the memory bittersweet? In a connection almost worthy of James Burke, we made the hot dog tacos on February 24, the day the Russian tanks started rolling into Ukraine.
  - pixl97 5y ago
    >definitely classification systems (especially in math) that don't have counter-examples Come on now, I want to get in an argument over the sorites paradox.
- NineStarPoint 5y ago
  My main issue with the rule is that it calls pumpkin pie bent toast, when it is obviously a missing category of type (2) where instead of being disjoint like the sandwich, the 2 pieces of starch are connected at an edge. Likewise there should probably be a category of type (3) where all pieces of starch are joined at a corner and a category of type (4) where it’s like a type (5) but with one of the sides removed. I believe with those three additions all rotationally-unique cube configurations would be accounted for by the rule.
a3w 5y ago
Burgers are sandwiches. Many things are sandwiches. Earth is a sandwich since most of the time two slices of bread touch the ground at pretty-much-opposite sides[citation needed]

gherkinnn 5y ago

“Panzer” in a very general protective sense translates to “Armour”. Brustpanzer -> Chest armour. Even a turtle’s shell is a Panzer. Typically a hard enclosure protecting the main body of a thing. But not its extremities. A “helmet” is a “Helm”. Though any element can be “gepanzert”, or “armoured”. It is important to note that Panzer mostly refers to protection from violence. A civilian car is never “gepanzert”, neither is a padded skateboarder. Unless you’re mocking something. A Chelsea tractor is an Hausfrauenpanzer. One exception I can think of is the Rückenpanzer, or spine protector. In a contemporary military context, a Panzer is any armoured vehicle. The definition is indeed looser than in English. The equivalent of tank (or main battle tank, MBT) is Kampfpanzer. Fighting tank. An IFV like the M2 is a Schützenpanzer. Shooter/gunner/rifleman’s tank. But when using Panzer to describe a specific vehicle, as opposed to a general category, I too would expect it to refer to an MBT. But I could be wrong here.

brazzy 5y ago
> A civilian car is never “gepanzert” There most definitely are civilian cars which count as "gepanzert": https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderschutzfahrzeug https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderschutzfahrzeug - still falling under your definition of "protection from violence".
- codeflo 5y ago
  Also more commonly/colloquially called “Panzerlimousine” — armoured limousine.
gerdesj 5y ago
Great response. Panzer on its own translates to (an) "armoured" (thing). I love the Chelsea tractor -> "Hausfrauenpanzer" allusion. The German might be translated as "The wife's tank" or "The missus' tank" or "Me bird's tank". The English word tank is the outlier. It's a code word for the initial concept that has stuck and unfortunately ended up as the canonical name for the thing. The word tank in English really used to mean a vessel eg a water tank. I lived in West Germany in the 1970s/80s ...

dragonwriter 5y ago

> In the USA, a “tank” refers to a “main battle tank”, or the M1 Abrams. That’s not true, though the only tanks in the current inventory in the US are MBTs. The term “tank” in the USA does encompass light tanks, like the (retired) M551 Sheridan, (canceled just before operational) M8 Buford, and the (in development) as-yet-undesignated product of the Mobile Protected Firepower project, not just MBTs.

ummonk 5y ago

A taco is mutually exclusive from a sandwich, because it’s made from folded piece of bread, rather than sliced / partially sliced which is what defines a sandwich. Hot dogs and subs are sandwiches for this reason, as are burgers. Also, “taco” is a term for a specific kind of folded bread dish - even quesadillas aren’t considered tacos. A pie is not a sandwich, taco, or quesadilla. It’s a pie.

hirundo 5y ago
A pie surrounded by crust is a ravioli.
- ms4720 5y ago
  > A pie surrounded by crust is a ravioli. Dumpling
  - dgfitz 5y ago
    Empanada
    - giantrobot 5y ago
      Screw all of you now I'm hungry and there's no empanada places around.
- mcv 5y ago
  How long do I need to boil it?
efitz 5y ago
So if I took a single slice of bread, and I put Welch’s grape jelly on half of one side, then I put Peter Pan crunchy peanut butter on the other half of the same side (rectangular halves, not triangular halves), and then I carefully folded the slice of bread over in half along the line where the jelly meets the peanut butter, then what do I have? I rest my case.

dogma1138 5y ago

The US/NATO equivalent term for Panzer is an AFV which encompasses all armored fighting vehicles.

WalterBright 5y ago
Panzer is just a better name than AFV. I used to think Panzer was German for "Panther" :-)

kortilla 5y ago

> In the USA, a "tank" refers to a "main battle tank", Lol, not sure if you’re trolling here, but that’s a recursive definition.

dragontamer 5y ago
So "tank" is just a weasel word that poorly translates between cultures and languages. But "Main Battle Tank" translates correctly. A German Flakpanzer could be called a "German Panzer", and you can translate that to mean "German Tank" in one sense, but a Flakpanzer is NOT what the USA would ever call a tank. But if we start with the term "Main Battle Tank", or "MBT" instead, then no, the Flakpanzer is NOT a MBT. The German MBT is the Leopard 2. ------ So MBT is the more technical and proper term.
Beldin 5y ago
My reading was this should be read as "the colloquial term X is typically used to designate objects that fall in military jargon in the class Y". That is: GP translates from colloquial to jargon. Since these are different, in particular, semantics of words change, this definition is not recursive.

karaterobot 5y ago

He talks specifically about the etymology of the word Panzer, including its colloquial usage, in the linked article.

MichaelMoser123 5y ago

This definition of the main battle tank is very much dependent on the current military doctrine of the host country. Each army is making its own trade offs of vehicle weight/armor vs speed vs caliber of the gun. - In the US an MBT is very heavy and has a very long gun, in order destroy tanks that are very var away. - In Russia an MBT is much lighter, so as not to get stuck in the mud. - In Israel an MBT has a shorter gun and has more armor, because it really is mostly used for infantry support - but it also has to be able to stand against enemy tanks.

flohofwoe 5y ago

Since the word "tank" was just a cover word used by the Brits, IMHO the Germans should have continued to use "Traktor" for theirs ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leichttraktor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leichttraktor