4 ms·

Isn't this a good thing? If the workers were fed up enough with conditions that they formed a union, doesn't that imply the managers were terrible? Shouldn't

by pkaler 4y ago

Isn't this a good thing? If the workers were fed up enough with conditions that they formed a union, doesn't that imply the managers were terrible? Shouldn't terrible managers be fired? For example, my wife is a unionized nurse. The best thing that could happen at her work is for her manager to be fired. The union has no power in that. I'm an engineering manager at a software company. I get performance reviews twice per year. It's well understood that if I'm doing a terrible job that I will be fired.

GoodJokes 4y ago
vmception 4y ago
that's an assumption. union existence should be tied to the perseverance of labor rights and collective bargaining power, not dissatisfaction. its mere coincidence that there is a correlation to workplace/compensation satisfaction and interest in a union.
thaumaturgy 4y ago
Counter-anecdotally, a friend of mine is one of the leaders of the Starbucks unionization efforts in Oregon, and they adore their store manager. The complaints that are driving those union efforts are the result of corporate policies and in no way related to specific stores. I can't say anything well-informed about Amazon specifically, but mega-corps tend to build lots of layers of middle management, then apply high-pressure incentive structures from the top that force middle management to do things that are unpopular with lower-level employees. When these policies inevitably backfire, it's the middle-management that gets axed for it.
pessimizer 4y ago
You don't need a terrible manager to have a union. A union isn't an attack, it's a bunch of peers caucusing. That's anti-union rhetoric, the idea that if there's good management you don't need a union, and that having a union is some kind of insult.
- pc86 4y ago
  It's not "anti-union rhetoric," come on. When is the last time a union has been formed in a workplace where everyone is happy, well paid, has great WLB, etc?
  - krainboltgreene 4y ago
    It's literally in the anti-union playbooks that union busting firms pass to their busters.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    No, it is anti-union rhetoric. Assembling a union isn't assembling an army. We can start saying that unions are only necessary when management is bad right after we start saying that management should only have meetings when their employees are bad. edit: They only say three things - 1) unions aren't necessary if management are good people, 2) unions are an invasion of people from the outside who either don't understand how good our management is or are fomenting discontent for their own foreign purposes, and 3) management is actually fighting against you for you, because if they gave you everything you wanted the place would close down and you would lose your job. You're saying thing number 1.
    - pc86 4y ago
      You conveniently ignored my actual question.
  - geraltofrivia 4y ago
    In my previous job in Germany. Sector: Tech and Research. Excellent managers, amazing WLB (worked till 8PM once and the manager apologised next day), well paid: earning the median income straight out of college. Had an excellent union and everyone in company hierarchy worked cordially and yet deferentially with them. Unions are not necessarily a form of attack. Unionise.
    - alostpuppy 4y ago

by pkaler 4y ago

GoodJokes 4y ago

vmception 4y ago

that's an assumption. union existence should be tied to the perseverance of labor rights and collective bargaining power, not dissatisfaction. its mere coincidence that there is a correlation to workplace/compensation satisfaction and interest in a union.

thaumaturgy 4y ago

Counter-anecdotally, a friend of mine is one of the leaders of the Starbucks unionization efforts in Oregon, and they adore their store manager. The complaints that are driving those union efforts are the result of corporate policies and in no way related to specific stores. I can't say anything well-informed about Amazon specifically, but mega-corps tend to build lots of layers of middle management, then apply high-pressure incentive structures from the top that force middle management to do things that are unpopular with lower-level employees. When these policies inevitably backfire, it's the middle-management that gets axed for it.

pessimizer 4y ago

You don't need a terrible manager to have a union. A union isn't an attack, it's a bunch of peers caucusing. That's anti-union rhetoric, the idea that if there's good management you don't need a union, and that having a union is some kind of insult.

pc86 4y ago
It's not "anti-union rhetoric," come on. When is the last time a union has been formed in a workplace where everyone is happy, well paid, has great WLB, etc?
- krainboltgreene 4y ago
  It's literally in the anti-union playbooks that union busting firms pass to their busters.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  No, it is anti-union rhetoric. Assembling a union isn't assembling an army. We can start saying that unions are only necessary when management is bad right after we start saying that management should only have meetings when their employees are bad. edit: They only say three things - 1) unions aren't necessary if management are good people, 2) unions are an invasion of people from the outside who either don't understand how good our management is or are fomenting discontent for their own foreign purposes, and 3) management is actually fighting against you for you, because if they gave you everything you wanted the place would close down and you would lose your job. You're saying thing number 1.
  - pc86 4y ago
    You conveniently ignored my actual question.
- geraltofrivia 4y ago
  In my previous job in Germany. Sector: Tech and Research. Excellent managers, amazing WLB (worked till 8PM once and the manager apologised next day), well paid: earning the median income straight out of college. Had an excellent union and everyone in company hierarchy worked cordially and yet deferentially with them. Unions are not necessarily a form of attack. Unionise.
  - alostpuppy 4y ago