10 ms·

There needs to be a law that forbids mandating cellphones and creditcards for ordinary business transactions. My apartment started requiring an app to enter the

by _8j50 5y ago

There needs to be a law that forbids mandating cellphones and creditcards for ordinary business transactions. My apartment started requiring an app to enter the premises and use another app so wash and dry your cloth and then required an app to enter the place you wash your cloth. I came home one day after a series of missed and delayed flights, tired and sleepy at 3am after waiting eons for uber at the airport when my phone finally died and at 3am I could not enter my own apartment because my phone was dead and there is no one else at that time to open the hate for me. In these cases, technology is creating not solving problems. Ask yourself this: As great as smartphones are, do you want a future where everyone is required to purchase one, an a cell plan to exist in society, to engage in commerce, enjoy shelter, health care and security? I would even go so far as to say cash and physical paper should be supported by any business and government department.

spyder 5y ago
Don't worry they will fix the cellphone requirement by installing face- / voice- / iris- recognition cameras. /s :-|
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> do you want a future where everyone is required to purchase one, an a cell plan to exist in society, to engage in commerce, enjoy shelter, health care and security? This seems like a slippery slope argument. Almost everyone purchasing these products has a phone and service. Cash is expensive to accept. (And makes zero sense for online-only services, which a cash-mandating law incentivises.)
- daenz 5y ago
  Everyone having a phone already is orthogonal to whether or not it is a good idea to require phones to function in society. I don't see it as a slippery slope argument because almost everything will eventually move to being online-based, and if "having a phone" becomes the standard for authN, then someone without a phone is excluded from participating in all of those things.
- 0des 5y ago
  I dont carry one
idle_zealot 5y ago
> Ask yourself this: As great as smartphones are, do you want a future where everyone is required to purchase one, an a cell plan to exist in society, to engage in commerce, enjoy shelter, health care and security? I’d be fine with this, so long as there’s a safety net of some sort to provide cheap/used phones to anyone who now needs one. Computers make lots of things easier, and forcing every business to accommodate the additional complexity of non-electronic access sounds like a bad idea. That said, I do agree that something should be done about “use this app to open your apartment door” and “use this app to do your laundry”. I think the emphasis should be on interoperability. So you as a business can’t require the use of a specific piece of software, but you can specify a protocol, preferably one that’s already in use. As for “my phone lost charge at 3am and I got locked out”. I see this as equivalent to “I lost my keys at 3am and got locked out”; unfortunate, but ultimately either your fault or bad luck. Time to call a locksmith (or digital equivalent, a hacker?).
- em-bee 5y ago
  ugh, no. an out of power phone is not the same thing as lost keys. in decades of traveling i never once lost my keys, but my phone is out of power almost every time after i spend a day away from home or office.
  - idle_zealot 5y ago
    If you knew that you needed phone charge to enter your apartment I bet you'd bring a spare battery pack when you went out. You could fit in the space you save by not needing keys!
    - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
      So instead of one tiny key, you need a powerbank, that you must also recharge and replace every few years. What if you drop the phone and break the screen?
    - alcover 5y ago
      > If you knew that you needed phone charge to enter your apartment I bet you'd bring a spare battery pack when you went out. I don't even.. what the hell.. UBIK is a fiction, not a desirable lifestyle. Your sentence is the stuff of tech-nightmares. Re-read please out loud : "If you knew that you needed phone charge to enter your apartment I bet you'd bring a spare battery pack when you went out."
theamk 5y ago
This is unusually, and I agree with you: I hope it never catches on. That said, my previous workplace has offered entrance with cellphone, as well as entrance by regular key fob. Over time, I have seen people switch more and more to cellphone method, and either returning the keyfobs or leaving them at home. Also, a nitpick: you don't necessarily have to purchase a cell plan for your phone. For example the scheme discussed in the article will work over WiFi just fine. And if you are in front of your computer trying to login, the chances are, you have WiFi as well. So while old cellphone is less convenient that keyfob (needs charging, bigger, heavier), it is still pretty usable.
- FinnKuhn 5y ago
  I think many people enjoy the option of using their phone, but don't like that they HAVE to use it. For example for most occasions you have your phone on you, but for example when it is broken or empty not having an alternative would be really annoying.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    just like in software, ensure that there's a graceful fallback for any techy convenience in the physical world.
ryukafalz 5y ago
> Ask yourself this: As great as smartphones are, do you want a future where everyone is required to purchase one, an a cell plan to exist in society, to engage in commerce, enjoy shelter, health care and security? No, I don’t. So it’s a good thing you can already use FIDO authentication without a phone using e.g. a Yubikey!
- mellavora 5y ago
  even if your apartment doesn\t support it?
  - dwaite 5y ago
    Apartment? FIDO security keys connect over USB or NFC to authenticate into a computer. There have not been much successes using them for physical access.
    - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
      The parent poster that ryukafalz replied to had an anecdote regarding being locked out of their apartment because their cellphone died, that was the essential cause of their antipathy, and the quoted text mentioned 'enjoy shelter' as one of the things you might need a cellphone to purchase in the dystopian future.
  - ryukafalz 5y ago
    As far as I can tell, these credentials are no different from existing WebAuthn credentials. So yes, you should be able to use any authenticator that implements the protocol, including the Yubikeys that already exist. This isn't like OAuth where each company has their own separate login flow that sites have to implement.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
pessimizer 5y ago
> As great as smartphones are, do you want a future where everyone is required to purchase one, an a cell plan to exist in society, to engage in commerce, enjoy shelter, health care and security? It's an even more dire question: do you want a future where you're required to carry that cellphone on your person at all times? And for the slippery slope: do you want a future where it's legal to arrest people until their phones can be verified? To prevent impersonation, maybe chip people like dogs so that they can be reliably matched to their phones, and make it a crime (maybe "attempted impersonation") to tamper with the chip or to help someone tamper with the chip?
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  Recent times have shown that the slippery slope is more often rule, than fallacy.
  - alwayslikethis 5y ago
    It's only a fallacy when there are no valid reasons to think that the events will actually progress the way you claim they are. In this case, there is a clear government and/or corporate motive in increased data mining and social control, so the only thing restricting them is they need to make people accustomed and not consider it too intrusive in non-totalitarian societies. Things like "contact tracing" or "preventing terrorism" or "think of the children" are among the ways that the powerful actors at the top are convincing the populus that such a measure would be necessary (and beneficial), and the majority of the population does not seem to care much about this to do anything. Hence, it is reasonable to believe that the claimed event (phone being required at some level) is going to happen at some point.
  - CamperBob2 5y ago
    It's a logical fallacy, which means it's a fallacy when dealing with logical entities. If you run across any of those in the real world, let me know.
- xg15 5y ago
  Adding to that, smartphones can also be extremely distracting. If you'll be effectively unable to put away your phone for longer periods of time because almost everything requires that you interact with it, that can't be good for your mental health.
ttGpN5Nde3pK 5y ago
> My apartment started requiring an app to enter the premises and use another app so wash and dry your cloth and then required an app to enter the place you wash your cloth. This shit has got to stop. I ran into similar doing a mortgage... They "only accepted the escrow payment through ${RANDOM_APP}." Yea right, y'all can take a check, and they did. I'm quite sure _all_ the app does is process the payment.:rolleyes: /s No way they collect/sell any info I send through it. Oh, and I'm sure they'll be super upfront whenever their database that my info sits in for eternity with 'admin:admin' protecting it gets popped.
- alwayslikethis 5y ago
  The similar shit with electronic payments should stop too. Here in the US, many stores demand that you pay in EXACT CHANGE or card. However, the system used to calculate prices after taxes is such that no ordinary person is able to know how much they'll have to pay in advance without resorting to some sort of tax calculator. Cash is our last defense against mass surveillance, and we need to cherish it.
  - 0des 5y ago
    legal tender for all debts, public and private
    - andreareina 5y ago
      Buying stuff at the store is not debt.
bombcar 5y ago
Automated systems like that should at least have a qi charger built in - so worst case you can jumpstart your phone.
beezle 5y ago
Let us not forget how all so secure cell phones are! I had a broker request a switch from a printed card with challenge responses to a cell phone based system. Rejected with prejudice. Never ever will I do banking or trading with a cell phone.
mortenjorck 5y ago
It's amazing how quickly Golden Krishna's TED-circuit profile faded and everyone forgot the critical UX lesson that he built his brand on: The best UI is no UI. The corollary being that if a one-step action now requires you to unlock your phone, you've added at least one additional step (probably more) and your "smart" IoT solution is a downgrade, not an upgrade.
another_story 5y ago
This exists in China right now. You need a phone to show you've not been in close contact with covid cases. Many places only accept WeChat/Alipay for payment. A phone is a necessity.
- userbinator 5y ago
  China, the ultimate authoritarian dystopia --- definitely something we should be taking lessons from, i.e. in order to not go in that direction.
- physicles 5y ago
  Yeah. Partial list of things you currently cannot do in China without a phone (at least, where I live): - Go to the supermarket (you can ask a friend with a phone to help you order online) - Take a taxi (usually, depends on the driver) - Eat at a restaurant - (Basically, enter any place of business) - Go to the hospital - Travel to another province - Visit any scenic area or large public park - Get a Covid test - Visit your friend’s apartment (usually) What if your battery dies? Super-reliance on cell phones means this is a solved this problem: it’s trivial to rent a charger anywhere there’s a convenience store. To be clear, I also see this as an anti-pattern. The presence or absence of an expensive connected device should not restrict what a person can do in meat space. A person not carrying a mobile phone is still a person. But I don’t see how you actually do contact tracing at scale without this. In the beginning of the pandemic, entering a supermarket meant writing your contact info (including ID number!) on a paper ledger at the entrance. Fuck that.
  - tsol 5y ago
    So if you, say, grab someone's phone and smash it they're totally screwed? They can't buy food, can't get a taxi, can't do most things. Interesting
    - physicles 5y ago
      Not really, they're just inconvenienced for part of a day. As long as your phone number is linked to your national ID, it's easy to get another SIM card, and you can just ask a friend for help buying another phone. The person who smashes their phone, on the other hand, would be totally screwed. Ubiquitous surveillance means that cell phone theft is basically not a thing anymore because the thief is pretty much always caught.
zeroonetwothree 5y ago
Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it should be illegal.
userbinator 5y ago
I would even go so far as to say cash and physical paper should be supported by any business and government department. I believe there's laws in some states that require cash to be accepted.
- mperham 5y ago
  It’s a Federal law and written on every bill, “this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private.”
  - bombcar 5y ago
    That pertains to debts - it’s legal to have credit/debit only stores; you see them at times.
    - 0des 5y ago
      concerts do this more and more now, festival wristbands with preloaded cash etc
- acranox 5y ago
  You are correct. https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIII/TitleIV/Chapter255D/Section10A https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIII/TitleIV/C...
- alwayslikethis 5y ago
  This is usually mostly circumvented by demanding "EXACT CHANGE" though. In most states, there are sales tax at several levels that don't apply uniformly, so it is nearly impossible or too time-consuming to use cash, because you simply don't know how much you'll have to pay.
  - antifa 5y ago
    Why does the company not give you an invoice for the exact amount?
twobitshifter 5y ago
We all remember when facebook.com became unreachable and they had to use a saw to get to the server? Buildings couldn’t be accessed, phone calls couldn’t be made, and emails couldn’t be sent because facebook.com was unreachable. That was just a DNS problem, imagine that happening everywhere.
- raydev 5y ago
  > We all remember when facebook.com became unreachable and they had to use a saw to get to the server? No one remembers that, because it didn't happen. It was misreported, but the correction never went as viral.
  - twobitshifter 5y ago
    That’s too bad, I wish it were true, it’s such a great story!
  - aaaaaaaaata 5y ago
    Link the source.
  - gnarlysasquatch 5y ago
    It happened, except for the saw. “[The data centers are] hard to get into… [T]he hardware and routers are designed to be difficult to modify even when you have physical access to them. So it took extra time…” https://engineering.fb.com/2021/10/05/networking-traffic/outage-details/ https://engineering.fb.com/2021/10/05/networking-traffic/out...
frereubu 5y ago
This kind of thing dawned on my once when going shopping. I was walking into a supermarket, checked my phone and saw that it had a low battery. I wasn't carrying cash, and I suddenly realised that my "money" could run out of battery and I'd have no way to pay. It's one part of why I buy physical books now (mostly second-hand online) - so I don't even have to think about recharging my book.
- caseysoftware 5y ago
  Yes. And imagine what happens if Google or Apple decide to lock your account..
- pdkl95 5y ago
  Max Headroom, Episode ABC.1.3: "Body Banks": Paula: "...what's that?" Blank Reg: "It's a book!" Paula: "Well, what's that?" Blank Reg: "It's a non-volatile storage medium. It's very rare. You should have one." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIWR-b42lU0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIWR-b42lU0
  - 0des 5y ago
    also tiktok, blipverts, 5 second commercials on youtube
    - pdkl95 5y ago
      Sci-fi is often a metaphorical representation of society. However, it's shocking how many episodes of Max Headroom have become literally true.
alephxyz 5y ago
That does not sound accessible to people with visual/motor disabilities and possibly illegal depending on your location
- nextos 5y ago
  Exactly. Also it's not secure. I kinda liked smartcards for authentication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_Authentication_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_Authentication_Program This stuff is simple, works offline and is hard to hack. I understand it still has some shortcomings, such as permitting MITM attacks. I hope the new FIDO standard gets a variety of implementations, including dumb keys, etc.
  - privacyking 5y ago
    It can be secure but that depends on the implementation
micromacrofoot 5y ago
Some sports stadiums are going cashless, so you must have phone apps or credit card… the workaround for a cash acceptance requirement? they have automated kiosks on-premises that convert cash to MasterCard
- hexo 5y ago
  If that mastercard is prepayed and anonymous, there's not really a problem with that. Similar how festivals use "credits" on NFC bracelets.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    anonymous mastercard is an oxymoron
pdkl95 5y ago
> I could not enter my own apartment because my phone was dead Whenever I hear about "smart" devices as a replacement for something that is safety/security critical (like a lock), the question of what happens when the internet and/or power fails is rarely even considered. Does the lock fail open or closed? Does the door open if there is a fire in the building that damages the internet/power wiring? If it fails open, does that mean someone can bypass the lock by simply cutting the network/power cables outside the building? There might be reasonable answers to these questions at a large business building that can afford fallback options, but I'm not sure there are good answers for e.g. residential situations.
- hunter2_ 5y ago
  Residential smart locks I've seen are wireless, with batteries and a keypad, so any networking (zwave, zigbee) or lack thereof doesn't affect that basic operation. And egress is never blocked by anything. If the batteries die and you need to get inside, you need to have a physical key or an alternative ingress.
BurningFrog 5y ago
I'm always aware how much of my life relies on my phone battery. If that does, I revert back to a 1990s savage!
kkfx 5y ago
We need a law that impose AVOIDING mandatory "smartphones" usage for anythings, starting from banks OTPs IMPOSING offline time-based classic OTPs or SSL certificates or SSH-based auth (never seen outside IT but very nice indeed) or classic matricial cards. IMPOSING open APIs. That's before discovering we can't be cured after an car crash because our smartphone can't properly identify ourselves with emergency care smart systems, or we can't enter our hose due to an e-ID vulnerability of our connected door.
diggernet 5y ago
Princess (and I imagine any other Carnival cruise line) wants that future for you. With their new Medallion system, they want all passengers to carry an Android or iOS smartphone, or be treated as a second-class citizen.

by _8j50 5y ago

spyder 5y ago

Don't worry they will fix the cellphone requirement by installing face- / voice- / iris- recognition cameras. /s :-|

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> do you want a future where everyone is required to purchase one, an a cell plan to exist in society, to engage in commerce, enjoy shelter, health care and security? This seems like a slippery slope argument. Almost everyone purchasing these products has a phone and service. Cash is expensive to accept. (And makes zero sense for online-only services, which a cash-mandating law incentivises.)

daenz 5y ago
Everyone having a phone already is orthogonal to whether or not it is a good idea to require phones to function in society. I don't see it as a slippery slope argument because almost everything will eventually move to being online-based, and if "having a phone" becomes the standard for authN, then someone without a phone is excluded from participating in all of those things.
0des 5y ago
I dont carry one

idle_zealot 5y ago

> Ask yourself this: As great as smartphones are, do you want a future where everyone is required to purchase one, an a cell plan to exist in society, to engage in commerce, enjoy shelter, health care and security? I’d be fine with this, so long as there’s a safety net of some sort to provide cheap/used phones to anyone who now needs one. Computers make lots of things easier, and forcing every business to accommodate the additional complexity of non-electronic access sounds like a bad idea. That said, I do agree that something should be done about “use this app to open your apartment door” and “use this app to do your laundry”. I think the emphasis should be on interoperability. So you as a business can’t require the use of a specific piece of software, but you can specify a protocol, preferably one that’s already in use. As for “my phone lost charge at 3am and I got locked out”. I see this as equivalent to “I lost my keys at 3am and got locked out”; unfortunate, but ultimately either your fault or bad luck. Time to call a locksmith (or digital equivalent, a hacker?).

em-bee 5y ago
ugh, no. an out of power phone is not the same thing as lost keys. in decades of traveling i never once lost my keys, but my phone is out of power almost every time after i spend a day away from home or office.
- idle_zealot 5y ago
  If you knew that you needed phone charge to enter your apartment I bet you'd bring a spare battery pack when you went out. You could fit in the space you save by not needing keys!
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    So instead of one tiny key, you need a powerbank, that you must also recharge and replace every few years. What if you drop the phone and break the screen?
  - alcover 5y ago
    > If you knew that you needed phone charge to enter your apartment I bet you'd bring a spare battery pack when you went out. I don't even.. what the hell.. UBIK is a fiction, not a desirable lifestyle. Your sentence is the stuff of tech-nightmares. Re-read please out loud : "If you knew that you needed phone charge to enter your apartment I bet you'd bring a spare battery pack when you went out."

theamk 5y ago

This is unusually, and I agree with you: I hope it never catches on. That said, my previous workplace has offered entrance with cellphone, as well as entrance by regular key fob. Over time, I have seen people switch more and more to cellphone method, and either returning the keyfobs or leaving them at home. Also, a nitpick: you don't necessarily have to purchase a cell plan for your phone. For example the scheme discussed in the article will work over WiFi just fine. And if you are in front of your computer trying to login, the chances are, you have WiFi as well. So while old cellphone is less convenient that keyfob (needs charging, bigger, heavier), it is still pretty usable.

FinnKuhn 5y ago
I think many people enjoy the option of using their phone, but don't like that they HAVE to use it. For example for most occasions you have your phone on you, but for example when it is broken or empty not having an alternative would be really annoying.
- dylan604 5y ago
  just like in software, ensure that there's a graceful fallback for any techy convenience in the physical world.

ryukafalz 5y ago

mellavora 5y ago
even if your apartment doesn\t support it?
- dwaite 5y ago
  Apartment? FIDO security keys connect over USB or NFC to authenticate into a computer. There have not been much successes using them for physical access.
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    The parent poster that ryukafalz replied to had an anecdote regarding being locked out of their apartment because their cellphone died, that was the essential cause of their antipathy, and the quoted text mentioned 'enjoy shelter' as one of the things you might need a cellphone to purchase in the dystopian future.
- ryukafalz 5y ago
  As far as I can tell, these credentials are no different from existing WebAuthn credentials. So yes, you should be able to use any authenticator that implements the protocol, including the Yubikeys that already exist. This isn't like OAuth where each company has their own separate login flow that sites have to implement.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

pessimizer 5y ago

> As great as smartphones are, do you want a future where everyone is required to purchase one, an a cell plan to exist in society, to engage in commerce, enjoy shelter, health care and security? It's an even more dire question: do you want a future where you're required to carry that cellphone on your person at all times? And for the slippery slope: do you want a future where it's legal to arrest people until their phones can be verified? To prevent impersonation, maybe chip people like dogs so that they can be reliably matched to their phones, and make it a crime (maybe "attempted impersonation") to tamper with the chip or to help someone tamper with the chip?

imwillofficial 5y ago
Recent times have shown that the slippery slope is more often rule, than fallacy.
- alwayslikethis 5y ago
  It's only a fallacy when there are no valid reasons to think that the events will actually progress the way you claim they are. In this case, there is a clear government and/or corporate motive in increased data mining and social control, so the only thing restricting them is they need to make people accustomed and not consider it too intrusive in non-totalitarian societies. Things like "contact tracing" or "preventing terrorism" or "think of the children" are among the ways that the powerful actors at the top are convincing the populus that such a measure would be necessary (and beneficial), and the majority of the population does not seem to care much about this to do anything. Hence, it is reasonable to believe that the claimed event (phone being required at some level) is going to happen at some point.
- CamperBob2 5y ago
  It's a logical fallacy, which means it's a fallacy when dealing with logical entities. If you run across any of those in the real world, let me know.
xg15 5y ago
Adding to that, smartphones can also be extremely distracting. If you'll be effectively unable to put away your phone for longer periods of time because almost everything requires that you interact with it, that can't be good for your mental health.

ttGpN5Nde3pK 5y ago

> My apartment started requiring an app to enter the premises and use another app so wash and dry your cloth and then required an app to enter the place you wash your cloth. This shit has got to stop. I ran into similar doing a mortgage... They "only accepted the escrow payment through ${RANDOM_APP}." Yea right, y'all can take a check, and they did. I'm quite sure _all_ the app does is process the payment.:rolleyes: /s No way they collect/sell any info I send through it. Oh, and I'm sure they'll be super upfront whenever their database that my info sits in for eternity with 'admin:admin' protecting it gets popped.

alwayslikethis 5y ago
The similar shit with electronic payments should stop too. Here in the US, many stores demand that you pay in EXACT CHANGE or card. However, the system used to calculate prices after taxes is such that no ordinary person is able to know how much they'll have to pay in advance without resorting to some sort of tax calculator. Cash is our last defense against mass surveillance, and we need to cherish it.
- 0des 5y ago
  legal tender for all debts, public and private
  - andreareina 5y ago
    Buying stuff at the store is not debt.

bombcar 5y ago

Automated systems like that should at least have a qi charger built in - so worst case you can jumpstart your phone.

beezle 5y ago

Let us not forget how all so secure cell phones are! I had a broker request a switch from a printed card with challenge responses to a cell phone based system. Rejected with prejudice. Never ever will I do banking or trading with a cell phone.

mortenjorck 5y ago

It's amazing how quickly Golden Krishna's TED-circuit profile faded and everyone forgot the critical UX lesson that he built his brand on: The best UI is no UI. The corollary being that if a one-step action now requires you to unlock your phone, you've added at least one additional step (probably more) and your "smart" IoT solution is a downgrade, not an upgrade.

another_story 5y ago

This exists in China right now. You need a phone to show you've not been in close contact with covid cases. Many places only accept WeChat/Alipay for payment. A phone is a necessity.

userbinator 5y ago
China, the ultimate authoritarian dystopia --- definitely something we should be taking lessons from, i.e. in order to not go in that direction.
physicles 5y ago
Yeah. Partial list of things you currently cannot do in China without a phone (at least, where I live): - Go to the supermarket (you can ask a friend with a phone to help you order online) - Take a taxi (usually, depends on the driver) - Eat at a restaurant - (Basically, enter any place of business) - Go to the hospital - Travel to another province - Visit any scenic area or large public park - Get a Covid test - Visit your friend’s apartment (usually) What if your battery dies? Super-reliance on cell phones means this is a solved this problem: it’s trivial to rent a charger anywhere there’s a convenience store. To be clear, I also see this as an anti-pattern. The presence or absence of an expensive connected device should not restrict what a person can do in meat space. A person not carrying a mobile phone is still a person. But I don’t see how you actually do contact tracing at scale without this. In the beginning of the pandemic, entering a supermarket meant writing your contact info (including ID number!) on a paper ledger at the entrance. Fuck that.
- tsol 5y ago
  So if you, say, grab someone's phone and smash it they're totally screwed? They can't buy food, can't get a taxi, can't do most things. Interesting
  - physicles 5y ago
    Not really, they're just inconvenienced for part of a day. As long as your phone number is linked to your national ID, it's easy to get another SIM card, and you can just ask a friend for help buying another phone. The person who smashes their phone, on the other hand, would be totally screwed. Ubiquitous surveillance means that cell phone theft is basically not a thing anymore because the thief is pretty much always caught.

zeroonetwothree 5y ago

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it should be illegal.

userbinator 5y ago

I would even go so far as to say cash and physical paper should be supported by any business and government department. I believe there's laws in some states that require cash to be accepted.

mperham 5y ago
It’s a Federal law and written on every bill, “this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private.”
- bombcar 5y ago
  That pertains to debts - it’s legal to have credit/debit only stores; you see them at times.
  - 0des 5y ago
    concerts do this more and more now, festival wristbands with preloaded cash etc
acranox 5y ago
You are correct. https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIII/TitleIV/Chapter255D/Section10A https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIII/TitleIV/C...
alwayslikethis 5y ago
This is usually mostly circumvented by demanding "EXACT CHANGE" though. In most states, there are sales tax at several levels that don't apply uniformly, so it is nearly impossible or too time-consuming to use cash, because you simply don't know how much you'll have to pay.
- antifa 5y ago
  Why does the company not give you an invoice for the exact amount?

twobitshifter 5y ago

We all remember when facebook.com became unreachable and they had to use a saw to get to the server? Buildings couldn’t be accessed, phone calls couldn’t be made, and emails couldn’t be sent because facebook.com was unreachable. That was just a DNS problem, imagine that happening everywhere.

raydev 5y ago
> We all remember when facebook.com became unreachable and they had to use a saw to get to the server? No one remembers that, because it didn't happen. It was misreported, but the correction never went as viral.
- twobitshifter 5y ago
  That’s too bad, I wish it were true, it’s such a great story!
- aaaaaaaaata 5y ago
  Link the source.
- gnarlysasquatch 5y ago
  It happened, except for the saw. “[The data centers are] hard to get into… [T]he hardware and routers are designed to be difficult to modify even when you have physical access to them. So it took extra time…” https://engineering.fb.com/2021/10/05/networking-traffic/outage-details/ https://engineering.fb.com/2021/10/05/networking-traffic/out...

frereubu 5y ago

This kind of thing dawned on my once when going shopping. I was walking into a supermarket, checked my phone and saw that it had a low battery. I wasn't carrying cash, and I suddenly realised that my "money" could run out of battery and I'd have no way to pay. It's one part of why I buy physical books now (mostly second-hand online) - so I don't even have to think about recharging my book.

caseysoftware 5y ago
Yes. And imagine what happens if Google or Apple decide to lock your account..
pdkl95 5y ago
Max Headroom, Episode ABC.1.3: "Body Banks": Paula: "...what's that?" Blank Reg: "It's a book!" Paula: "Well, what's that?" Blank Reg: "It's a non-volatile storage medium. It's very rare. You should have one." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIWR-b42lU0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIWR-b42lU0
- 0des 5y ago
  also tiktok, blipverts, 5 second commercials on youtube
  - pdkl95 5y ago
    Sci-fi is often a metaphorical representation of society. However, it's shocking how many episodes of Max Headroom have become literally true.

alephxyz 5y ago

That does not sound accessible to people with visual/motor disabilities and possibly illegal depending on your location

nextos 5y ago
Exactly. Also it's not secure. I kinda liked smartcards for authentication: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_Authentication_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_Authentication_Program This stuff is simple, works offline and is hard to hack. I understand it still has some shortcomings, such as permitting MITM attacks. I hope the new FIDO standard gets a variety of implementations, including dumb keys, etc.
- privacyking 5y ago
  It can be secure but that depends on the implementation

micromacrofoot 5y ago

Some sports stadiums are going cashless, so you must have phone apps or credit card… the workaround for a cash acceptance requirement? they have automated kiosks on-premises that convert cash to MasterCard

hexo 5y ago
If that mastercard is prepayed and anonymous, there's not really a problem with that. Similar how festivals use "credits" on NFC bracelets.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  anonymous mastercard is an oxymoron

pdkl95 5y ago

> I could not enter my own apartment because my phone was dead Whenever I hear about "smart" devices as a replacement for something that is safety/security critical (like a lock), the question of what happens when the internet and/or power fails is rarely even considered. Does the lock fail open or closed? Does the door open if there is a fire in the building that damages the internet/power wiring? If it fails open, does that mean someone can bypass the lock by simply cutting the network/power cables outside the building? There might be reasonable answers to these questions at a large business building that can afford fallback options, but I'm not sure there are good answers for e.g. residential situations.

hunter2_ 5y ago
Residential smart locks I've seen are wireless, with batteries and a keypad, so any networking (zwave, zigbee) or lack thereof doesn't affect that basic operation. And egress is never blocked by anything. If the batteries die and you need to get inside, you need to have a physical key or an alternative ingress.

BurningFrog 5y ago

I'm always aware how much of my life relies on my phone battery. If that does, I revert back to a 1990s savage!

kkfx 5y ago

We need a law that impose AVOIDING mandatory "smartphones" usage for anythings, starting from banks OTPs IMPOSING offline time-based classic OTPs or SSL certificates or SSH-based auth (never seen outside IT but very nice indeed) or classic matricial cards. IMPOSING open APIs. That's before discovering we can't be cured after an car crash because our smartphone can't properly identify ourselves with emergency care smart systems, or we can't enter our hose due to an e-ID vulnerability of our connected door.

diggernet 5y ago

Princess (and I imagine any other Carnival cruise line) wants that future for you. With their new Medallion system, they want all passengers to carry an Android or iOS smartphone, or be treated as a second-class citizen.