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In Amazon's purview, 'the problem' is that the 'union was formed'. It's a signal to the managers of the other warehouses that if a union is formed on their wat

In Amazon's purview, 'the problem' is that the 'union was formed'. It's a signal to the managers of the other warehouses that if a union is formed on their watch, they are toast.

rolandog 4y ago
Wouldn't it be ironic that this makes Senior Managers realize it's in their best interest to join a union?
- stormbrew 4y ago
  Most unions don’t allow managers to join, as they’re generally considered to be part of capital’s collective bargaining side, if not part of capital themselves. I think most modern labor theory includes a “professional-managerial class” to account for this. There’s an argument to be had about where this line makes sense in modern megacorps but local managers in blue collar work tend to hold a lot of power over their employees in particular regardless of the shape of the corporation they’re under, so it would be surprising if they could. Edit: fair points in the replies about management unions and that I was focused on a North American perspective. I was interpreting the post I replied to as saying the managers would join the union (as in the same one), but they didn't actually say that. I can definitely believe that things would be different in a less union-adversarial environment. But it's still pretty unlikely that warehouse bosses at amazon would be welcome in the same union as the workers, or be likely to manage to unionize themselves successfully. The incentives just don't really align well in this context: corporate has too many carrots and sticks.
  - tokai 4y ago
    Every group can organize. There's no magical barrier. Dunno about the US but unions for management does exist in other countries.
    - syshum 4y ago
      This is one of the ongoing problems with discussion about "unions" "Unions" in the US are very very very very very different legally than "unions" in EU and other nations, personally i think they are so different we need a different term for them... The closest we have to a EU style union would be something like SAG, or the other entertainment unions, which often referr to themselves as Guilds. The employment unions like being formed at amazon are different animals all together which have ALOT of downside for even the workers in them.
      - happymellon 4y ago
        > which have ALOT of downside for even the workers in them. Do you have examples? As someone in the UK I don't see anything different between the Amazon workers Union and the unions here except for age and experience. They all just want to not be treated like dirt.
        syshum 4y ago
        The big difference (and please correct me if I get UK info wrong, I am not an expert in UK Labor, I am versed in US Labor) that in the UK you have sector unions, not enterprise unions. A company may have employee's working under several unions, and I believe there are even competiting Sector unions that an employee can choose to join finding the union that best suites them In the US, typically, the is a 1:1 union, enterprise relationship. If you want to work at company X, you must join Union Y with no options to join a competing union, no options to opt out, and no regress if you do not feel the union is representing your interests. referred to as "closed shops" there is large amounts of corruption, favoritism, and other negative quality to many US Unions.
        Avshalom 4y ago
        closed shops have been illegal since Taft-Hartley in 1947.
        4y ago
  - MrStonedOne 4y ago
  - SilasX 4y ago
    > Most unions don’t allow managers to join, That would be a really daft rule for a union of Amazon managers to have. Or maybe I misunderstood you and you were replying to some uncharitable interpretation of the parent’s suggestion that managers join a Union?
    - stormbrew 4y ago
      I added an edit explaining my own misunderstanding. I'm pretty sure I added it before you posted this, so I'm not sure how you missed it, but it's there.
      - SilasX 4y ago
        I did miss the edit. I guess I assumed for something that bad, you'd just delete that part of the comment. The point stands, that you would never have made such an unforced error if you didn't have such a laser focus on a comically uncharitable interpretation of the original parent's remark. As if the existence of manager-banned unions could ever be relevant to a comment specifically suggesting what a manager should do. What was going on in your head? "Hm, someone suggested a manager unionizing. Oh! He must mean one of the unions that ban managers! What an idiot!"
        stormbrew 4y ago
        I misread "join a union" as "join the union." Literally I mistook one article for another, which is what I said. I feel like you're kinda throwing stones in a glass house here by imparting a whole bunch of really bizarre motives to me (I certainly didn't call -- nor did I think anyone was -- an idiot), apparently not reading my entire post, and then accusing me of not reading things charitably. I can assure you I am a fallible human being capable of misunderstanding things people say without malice. Many people just plain don't know that unions (at least in north american blue collar work) are often not open to even middle management being members. I was simply trying to add information to the thread. Anyways, deleting the part of the post that made a mistake would have made all the replies awfully confusing.
- jollybean 4y ago
  To be like Lukashenko and read the winds of change and to get with the winning team. They have no power otherwise, they're just cogs in the system. Influence to avoid having the union, but if one is going to form ... then beg to join it. Bend like a reed in the wind, it's all they can hope to do.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  Senior managers (heck, even line managers) do not have the right to unionize.
  - shlurpy 4y ago
    Historically, no group has a right to unionize until they fight to earn it, usually through unionization.
  - nobodyandproud 4y ago
    The rules of unionization need to change with the times. The line manager making less than a SWE 1 isn’t in the same league as senior management who own a significant portion of the company equity. Even software engineers are subjected to the meat grinder in Amazon.
    - rolandog 4y ago
      Indeed. I feel the benefit of unionizing for managers is making the buck stop earlier in the trickle-down chain of bad policies or orders.

In Amazon's purview, 'the problem' is that the 'union was formed'. It's a signal to the managers of the other warehouses that if a union is formed on their watch, they are toast.

rolandog 4y ago

Wouldn't it be ironic that this makes Senior Managers realize it's in their best interest to join a union?

stormbrew 4y ago
Most unions don’t allow managers to join, as they’re generally considered to be part of capital’s collective bargaining side, if not part of capital themselves. I think most modern labor theory includes a “professional-managerial class” to account for this. There’s an argument to be had about where this line makes sense in modern megacorps but local managers in blue collar work tend to hold a lot of power over their employees in particular regardless of the shape of the corporation they’re under, so it would be surprising if they could. Edit: fair points in the replies about management unions and that I was focused on a North American perspective. I was interpreting the post I replied to as saying the managers would join the union (as in the same one), but they didn't actually say that. I can definitely believe that things would be different in a less union-adversarial environment. But it's still pretty unlikely that warehouse bosses at amazon would be welcome in the same union as the workers, or be likely to manage to unionize themselves successfully. The incentives just don't really align well in this context: corporate has too many carrots and sticks.
- tokai 4y ago
  Every group can organize. There's no magical barrier. Dunno about the US but unions for management does exist in other countries.
  - syshum 4y ago
    This is one of the ongoing problems with discussion about "unions" "Unions" in the US are very very very very very different legally than "unions" in EU and other nations, personally i think they are so different we need a different term for them... The closest we have to a EU style union would be something like SAG, or the other entertainment unions, which often referr to themselves as Guilds. The employment unions like being formed at amazon are different animals all together which have ALOT of downside for even the workers in them.
    - happymellon 4y ago
      > which have ALOT of downside for even the workers in them. Do you have examples? As someone in the UK I don't see anything different between the Amazon workers Union and the unions here except for age and experience. They all just want to not be treated like dirt.
      - syshum 4y ago
        The big difference (and please correct me if I get UK info wrong, I am not an expert in UK Labor, I am versed in US Labor) that in the UK you have sector unions, not enterprise unions. A company may have employee's working under several unions, and I believe there are even competiting Sector unions that an employee can choose to join finding the union that best suites them In the US, typically, the is a 1:1 union, enterprise relationship. If you want to work at company X, you must join Union Y with no options to join a competing union, no options to opt out, and no regress if you do not feel the union is representing your interests. referred to as "closed shops" there is large amounts of corruption, favoritism, and other negative quality to many US Unions.
        Avshalom 4y ago
        closed shops have been illegal since Taft-Hartley in 1947.
        4y ago
- MrStonedOne 4y ago
- SilasX 4y ago
  > Most unions don’t allow managers to join, That would be a really daft rule for a union of Amazon managers to have. Or maybe I misunderstood you and you were replying to some uncharitable interpretation of the parent’s suggestion that managers join a Union?
  - stormbrew 4y ago
    I added an edit explaining my own misunderstanding. I'm pretty sure I added it before you posted this, so I'm not sure how you missed it, but it's there.
    - SilasX 4y ago
      I did miss the edit. I guess I assumed for something that bad, you'd just delete that part of the comment. The point stands, that you would never have made such an unforced error if you didn't have such a laser focus on a comically uncharitable interpretation of the original parent's remark. As if the existence of manager-banned unions could ever be relevant to a comment specifically suggesting what a manager should do. What was going on in your head? "Hm, someone suggested a manager unionizing. Oh! He must mean one of the unions that ban managers! What an idiot!"
      - stormbrew 4y ago
        I misread "join a union" as "join the union." Literally I mistook one article for another, which is what I said. I feel like you're kinda throwing stones in a glass house here by imparting a whole bunch of really bizarre motives to me (I certainly didn't call -- nor did I think anyone was -- an idiot), apparently not reading my entire post, and then accusing me of not reading things charitably. I can assure you I am a fallible human being capable of misunderstanding things people say without malice. Many people just plain don't know that unions (at least in north american blue collar work) are often not open to even middle management being members. I was simply trying to add information to the thread. Anyways, deleting the part of the post that made a mistake would have made all the replies awfully confusing.
jollybean 4y ago
To be like Lukashenko and read the winds of change and to get with the winning team. They have no power otherwise, they're just cogs in the system. Influence to avoid having the union, but if one is going to form ... then beg to join it. Bend like a reed in the wind, it's all they can hope to do.
dragonwriter 4y ago
Senior managers (heck, even line managers) do not have the right to unionize.
- shlurpy 4y ago
  Historically, no group has a right to unionize until they fight to earn it, usually through unionization.
- nobodyandproud 4y ago
  The rules of unionization need to change with the times. The line manager making less than a SWE 1 isn’t in the same league as senior management who own a significant portion of the company equity. Even software engineers are subjected to the meat grinder in Amazon.
  - rolandog 4y ago
    Indeed. I feel the benefit of unionizing for managers is making the buck stop earlier in the trickle-down chain of bad policies or orders.