5 ms·

You really want that? I love that every tiny operation accepts credit cards and apple pay now. > unless you can prove a corporation will pay for you by swiping

You really want that? I love that every tiny operation accepts credit cards and apple pay now. > unless you can prove a corporation will pay for you by swiping your payment card and I don't want the state’s unsanitary and cocaine-laced notes for payment. see we can frame all options any way we want

superkuh 4y ago
Oh, sure. Accepting credit cards is great. But only accepting credit cards is literal evil and against the law in the USA. To get around this they make you swipe the card to be able to order. That way there is no debt you can chose to pay in cash. It's obviously a loophole in the current laws. Some large cities have local regulations to prevent this evil. They started doing this long before the pandemic. It's not about that.
- vmception 4y ago
  Retailer payment method acceptance is regulated at the municipal and state level. There is no federal or constitutional requirement to take cash or retain the option of cash payment. So for the loophole experience, I would need you to show if thats a viable loophole in the areas where cash payment is mandated
- Fernicia 4y ago
  If you want to not appear unhinged, I recommend avoiding calling obviously innocuous things evil unless you've already given your reasons for doing so. There are very real risks a food truck faces in accepting cash: fomite diseases, counterfits, armed robbery. I'm guessing you're fine enforcing the truck owners bear these risks.
  - logifail 4y ago
    > There are very real risks a food truck faces in accepting cash: fomite diseases, counterfits, armed robbery For balance we all know that there are [other] risks associated in accepting card payments. We should also note that the card payment system is not "free", not available to everyone, and does not operate without collateral damage, not least that it excludes vulnerable groups in society. > I'm guessing you're fine enforcing the truck owners bear these risks Enforcing following the rules (particular not wriggling around them using legal loopholes) should - one might think - be a fairly mainstream view?
  - oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
    I agree that "evil" is maybe a step too far, but "innocuous" is too short, imo. I don't think it's fair or reasonable to block sections of society — people without a credit card — from making purchases like this.
    - bumby 4y ago
      Is your position that it should be mandated by law or just the right thing for a business to do at their discretion? I grew up in an area where Canadian currency often made it into the money supply and most vendors would just accept Canadian quarters at the US rate without a fuss. I remember the weird looks I got the first time I tried to do the same in a state further south. I feel like both are reasonable approaches but I would hesitate to legally mandate one approach because they are context dependent.
  - superkuh 4y ago
    It is evil. This is a food business that literally won't sell to human persons. It will only sell to corporate persons. That's evil and has serious damaging consequences to society.
- bumby 4y ago
  >only accepting credit cards is literal evil and against the law in the USA. "There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise"[1] [1]https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
  - superkuh 4y ago
    That's correct. But if you already have a debt to a business or human person they must accept currency as payment for that debt. I think you missed the whole point of my comment. The long standing way food trucks work is you order, wait, receive food, then pay. Now, to get around this law, food trucks have switched to pay, order, wait, receive food.
    - bumby 4y ago
      Ah, ok, I'm tracking you now. I think the confusion is that is not been my experience. Every food truck I've went to go order, pay, wait, receive food. I don't think your central premise holds, however. You may be reading too much between the lines or giving too much credence to a colloquial (and perhaps incorrect) interpretation. "when a debt has been incurred by one party to another, and the parties have agreed that cash is to be the medium of exchange, then legal tender must be accepted if it is proffered in satisfaction of that debt. However, otherwise the selling party may set the medium of exchange to be anything they choose: dollars, bananas, precious gems, feathers, whiskey, etc. They may also choose to accept cash payment only via alternative forms (e.g., credit/debit card, check, money order) rather than currency itself." https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/legal-tender-payment/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/legal-tender-payment/
gedy 4y ago
That's convenient, but I'd rather not have my eating habits data mined for use against me later. (Especially not food truck food)
- vmception 4y ago
  yeah….. that’s going to happen though that ship has long sailed we’re at the bottom of the slippery slope try to enjoy yourself
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    How is that going to happen if I pay cash?
    - vmception 4y ago
      The same way you get ad recommendations Your social network and everything else you look up and do Even if you’re a ghost, the ghost profile is accurate enough
      - HWR_14 4y ago
        People get ads? That sounds sad. Yeah, there are probably fairly accurate ghost profiles on me. But they aren't going to figure out when I spend cash at a food truck. At least I really don't see how. Like, how would they know which food truck, or that I went anywhere. It's not like they know how much cash I have in my wallet.
robonerd 4y ago
I often pay with credit cards at food trucks and restaurants that accept either cash or credit cards. But if they don't take cash, then I won't give them either. If they refuse cash, I refuse to do business with them at all. Refusing to accept cash is antisocial behavior and I will not reward it.
- vmception 4y ago
  I agree with you and others that it is easy to fall outside the system, and that it is considerate to try to make a point to businesses that dont accept cash at all.
woodruffw 4y ago
> I love that every tiny operation accepts credit cards and apple pay now. At least in NYC, it's standard for street vendors and smaller businesses (like delis) to take only cash (or to have a purchase minimum for a credit charge, usually $10 or higher). I've heard lots of reasons for this, all of which I find plausible: it's more profitable (credit processing fees are effectively a regressive tax), it allows vendors to pass on savings to their customers (my local coffee shop gives me a discount if I pay in cash), and it allows them to dodge their local sales tax.
- vmception 4y ago
  whenever you want you can always throw the credit card merchant agreement at any of those vendors just because you feel mildly inconvenienced. it is against the merchant agreement to have any purchase minimum and vendors have absolutely no leverage on this reality (as this is per payment network, this can change per network at any time, but my understanding is that merchants can't have card minimums - this also applies to bars where much higher card purchase minimums are also commonplace) of course, the sympathetic approach is to realize that its more profitable for the credit card network to have no mininum. but as you don't really experience this concept of card minimums outside of NYC, there's no reason to follow along with those merchant's rationale just because they told you why and you feel sowwy for them. when I think about every thing that threatens low margin businesses, I just notice that a different one will take their place and a few owners will have to do something else to exchange time for food and shelter just like everyone else, so no need to keep them on life support
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    > whenever you want you can always throw the credit card merchant agreement at any of those vendors just because you feel mildly inconvenienced. This is a recurring misconception: merchants have been allowed to set a credit card minimum of up to $10 since Dodd-Frank[1]. Even before that, entire industries have had merchant exemptions (utility and rent collection come to mind). The rest of this response is bizarrely cynical: I don’t feel “sowwy” for them; I like saving money on my coffee and I’m happy knowing that my payment method is more sustainable, since it means I don’t have to worry about changing my routine. [1]: http://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-electronic-payments-lower-costs-retailers http://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-ele...
oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
The conversation got derailed, but whether you want all businesses to only accept cash, to only accept card, or to accept both, put that aside for a minute — surely the option to filter based on that criteria is harmless? That's all OP was asking for.

superkuh 4y ago

Oh, sure. Accepting credit cards is great. But only accepting credit cards is literal evil and against the law in the USA. To get around this they make you swipe the card to be able to order. That way there is no debt you can chose to pay in cash. It's obviously a loophole in the current laws. Some large cities have local regulations to prevent this evil. They started doing this long before the pandemic. It's not about that.

vmception 4y ago
Retailer payment method acceptance is regulated at the municipal and state level. There is no federal or constitutional requirement to take cash or retain the option of cash payment. So for the loophole experience, I would need you to show if thats a viable loophole in the areas where cash payment is mandated
Fernicia 4y ago
If you want to not appear unhinged, I recommend avoiding calling obviously innocuous things evil unless you've already given your reasons for doing so. There are very real risks a food truck faces in accepting cash: fomite diseases, counterfits, armed robbery. I'm guessing you're fine enforcing the truck owners bear these risks.
- logifail 4y ago
  > There are very real risks a food truck faces in accepting cash: fomite diseases, counterfits, armed robbery For balance we all know that there are [other] risks associated in accepting card payments. We should also note that the card payment system is not "free", not available to everyone, and does not operate without collateral damage, not least that it excludes vulnerable groups in society. > I'm guessing you're fine enforcing the truck owners bear these risks Enforcing following the rules (particular not wriggling around them using legal loopholes) should - one might think - be a fairly mainstream view?
- oneeyedpigeon 4y ago
  I agree that "evil" is maybe a step too far, but "innocuous" is too short, imo. I don't think it's fair or reasonable to block sections of society — people without a credit card — from making purchases like this.
  - bumby 4y ago
    Is your position that it should be mandated by law or just the right thing for a business to do at their discretion? I grew up in an area where Canadian currency often made it into the money supply and most vendors would just accept Canadian quarters at the US rate without a fuss. I remember the weird looks I got the first time I tried to do the same in a state further south. I feel like both are reasonable approaches but I would hesitate to legally mandate one approach because they are context dependent.
- superkuh 4y ago
  It is evil. This is a food business that literally won't sell to human persons. It will only sell to corporate persons. That's evil and has serious damaging consequences to society.
bumby 4y ago
>only accepting credit cards is literal evil and against the law in the USA. "There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise"[1] [1]https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
- superkuh 4y ago
  That's correct. But if you already have a debt to a business or human person they must accept currency as payment for that debt. I think you missed the whole point of my comment. The long standing way food trucks work is you order, wait, receive food, then pay. Now, to get around this law, food trucks have switched to pay, order, wait, receive food.
  - bumby 4y ago
    Ah, ok, I'm tracking you now. I think the confusion is that is not been my experience. Every food truck I've went to go order, pay, wait, receive food. I don't think your central premise holds, however. You may be reading too much between the lines or giving too much credence to a colloquial (and perhaps incorrect) interpretation. "when a debt has been incurred by one party to another, and the parties have agreed that cash is to be the medium of exchange, then legal tender must be accepted if it is proffered in satisfaction of that debt. However, otherwise the selling party may set the medium of exchange to be anything they choose: dollars, bananas, precious gems, feathers, whiskey, etc. They may also choose to accept cash payment only via alternative forms (e.g., credit/debit card, check, money order) rather than currency itself." https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/legal-tender-payment/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/legal-tender-payment/

gedy 4y ago

That's convenient, but I'd rather not have my eating habits data mined for use against me later. (Especially not food truck food)

vmception 4y ago
yeah….. that’s going to happen though that ship has long sailed we’re at the bottom of the slippery slope try to enjoy yourself
- HWR_14 4y ago
  How is that going to happen if I pay cash?
  - vmception 4y ago
    The same way you get ad recommendations Your social network and everything else you look up and do Even if you’re a ghost, the ghost profile is accurate enough
    - HWR_14 4y ago
      People get ads? That sounds sad. Yeah, there are probably fairly accurate ghost profiles on me. But they aren't going to figure out when I spend cash at a food truck. At least I really don't see how. Like, how would they know which food truck, or that I went anywhere. It's not like they know how much cash I have in my wallet.

robonerd 4y ago

I often pay with credit cards at food trucks and restaurants that accept either cash or credit cards. But if they don't take cash, then I won't give them either. If they refuse cash, I refuse to do business with them at all. Refusing to accept cash is antisocial behavior and I will not reward it.

vmception 4y ago
I agree with you and others that it is easy to fall outside the system, and that it is considerate to try to make a point to businesses that dont accept cash at all.

woodruffw 4y ago

> I love that every tiny operation accepts credit cards and apple pay now. At least in NYC, it's standard for street vendors and smaller businesses (like delis) to take only cash (or to have a purchase minimum for a credit charge, usually $10 or higher). I've heard lots of reasons for this, all of which I find plausible: it's more profitable (credit processing fees are effectively a regressive tax), it allows vendors to pass on savings to their customers (my local coffee shop gives me a discount if I pay in cash), and it allows them to dodge their local sales tax.

vmception 4y ago
whenever you want you can always throw the credit card merchant agreement at any of those vendors just because you feel mildly inconvenienced. it is against the merchant agreement to have any purchase minimum and vendors have absolutely no leverage on this reality (as this is per payment network, this can change per network at any time, but my understanding is that merchants can't have card minimums - this also applies to bars where much higher card purchase minimums are also commonplace) of course, the sympathetic approach is to realize that its more profitable for the credit card network to have no mininum. but as you don't really experience this concept of card minimums outside of NYC, there's no reason to follow along with those merchant's rationale just because they told you why and you feel sowwy for them. when I think about every thing that threatens low margin businesses, I just notice that a different one will take their place and a few owners will have to do something else to exchange time for food and shelter just like everyone else, so no need to keep them on life support
- woodruffw 4y ago
  > whenever you want you can always throw the credit card merchant agreement at any of those vendors just because you feel mildly inconvenienced. This is a recurring misconception: merchants have been allowed to set a credit card minimum of up to $10 since Dodd-Frank[1]. Even before that, entire industries have had merchant exemptions (utility and rent collection come to mind). The rest of this response is bizarrely cynical: I don’t feel “sowwy” for them; I like saving money on my coffee and I’m happy knowing that my payment method is more sustainable, since it means I don’t have to worry about changing my routine. [1]: http://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-electronic-payments-lower-costs-retailers http://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-ele...

oneeyedpigeon 4y ago

The conversation got derailed, but whether you want all businesses to only accept cash, to only accept card, or to accept both, put that aside for a minute — surely the option to filter based on that criteria is harmless? That's all OP was asking for.