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European countries have rich cultures too, but apparently do not have the option to preserve that. Go figure.

School-Cotton 5y ago
They had the option. Nobody ever forced European countries to accept mass immigration. They could have remained closed and avoided outside cultural influence if they had wanted to, but most of them didn’t.
- throwaway_1928 5y ago
  In fact, they went around forcing their culture upon others. This is historically a fact. Let's see what the HN censors say.
  - Aurelius3 5y ago
    Many did, but many did not, entirety of eastern europe (minus Russia), germany, nordics, balkans, and central european states had no history of colonization or very little, and even then it was not in the regions most associated with migration to europe. Only things besides colonization that come to mind are wars in the middle east, and every country I listed besides germany is too small to matter in that.
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      They didn't do much colonization because they were too busy fighting wars with each other... For centuries... WW1 and WW2 and even the current conflict is just singular events in long line of internal wars of Europe. Also something that should not be easily forgotten or ever forgiven is the missionary work by religious groups... Destroying cultures around world. It is sad we have not punished them for that and maybe even banned them to protect the future.
      - Aurelius3 5y ago
        >They didn't do much colonization because they were too busy fighting wars with each other No, nearly every one of the countries I listed had simply no intention or means to colonize effectively at a profit, has nothing to do with preoccupation with continental wars. > Also something that should not be easily forgotten or ever forgiven is the missionary work by religious groups Again, all of the countries I mentioned had very little if not null participation in this, and yet to varying degrees they are being punished for it...
  - betaby 5y ago
    Ever heard about Genghis Khan? Mehmed II?
    - School-Cotton 5y ago
      The comment you’re replying to never claimed that Europeans are the only people who have ever imposed their culture on others. As you point out, that claim would be patently absurd.
- xienze 5y ago
  > Nobody ever forced European countries to accept mass immigration. It came up for a direct vote? Or did politicians who never ran on mass immigration platforms just kinda decide to introduce legislation? People tend to conflate the acceptance of mass immigration in western countries (by characterizing opposition as horribly racist) with tacit approval by the citizens.
  - unpopularopp 5y ago
    In some countries it does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Hungarian_migrant_quota_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Hungarian_migrant_quota_r...
  - School-Cotton 5y ago
    Of course in representative democracies not every topic is voted on in a referendum. The general failure of anti-immigration parties to win majorities in European countries suggests that most people are either pro-immigration or at least willing to accept it.
    - xienze 5y ago
      > The general failure of anti-immigration parties to win majorities in European countries suggests that most people are either pro-immigration or at least willing to accept it. But again, that ties back to the demonization of being against immigration. Is it _really_ reflective of true popular support if you’re going to be labeled a racist if you don’t vote the right way?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - School-Cotton 5y ago
        Well, that’s why voting is secret.
    - spayce 5y ago
      This idea that the population has a say and gets what it wants… This is most fascinating.
winter_blue 5y ago
The sheer amount of xenophobia and ethnic-nationalism/racism on HN that’s upvoted never surprises. I almost came to this thread expecting a flurry of xenophobic comments, and yup, I found it.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  There's quite a few dogwhistlers here for sure but I'd say it's availability bias - people comment more on threads about things they care about. Id say the community skews libertarian, not far right.
- ryan93 5y ago
  A lot of the immigrants to Europe are ill behaved. No one has problems with Japanese immigrants in Europe.
- LudwigNagasena 5y ago
  It’s common to see it everywhere. It’s very common to hear blood and soil rhetoric wrt black people or Native Americans, but it’s called progressive and liberal but not xenophobic for some reasons.
  - throwaway_1928 5y ago
    > It’s very common to hear blood and soil rhetoric wrt black people or Native Americans, but it’s called progressive and liberal but not xenophobic for some reasons. I believe it is called progressive and liberal because African Americans and Native Americans have historically been enslaved or (nearly) exterminated by Europeans in North America.
- thriftwy 5y ago
  I came to ask why it's OK for a japanese to be ethnic-nationalist but it's not OK for a european? What's wrong with being ethnic-nationalist?
  - spayce 5y ago
MadSudaca 5y ago
This is a tricky situation, because "European" culture is much more disseminated throughout the world. How many countries outside of Europe are majority Christian? How many speak Spanish, French and English? How many have large populations who are 1st or 2nd level descendants of people born in Europe? You cannot influence without being influenced.
- Aurelius3 5y ago
  >You cannot influence without being influenced. Why not? China has massive influence in many countries, and they seem to retain a lot of their culture while suppressing any internal change/dissent. It would seem to me that many European countries have simply decided they would like to be influenced for whatever reason, not that they are compelled to by some universal rule.
  - MadSudaca 5y ago
    How do you know China isn’t being influenced?
    - Aurelius3 5y ago
      (Relatively) Low rates of foreign immigration despite ageing population, strong central goverment with the intention of weakening external and internal influences (See Uyghurs / western chinese territories for an example of internal influences, for external influences the great firewall is an obvious one, but there are many others), and third a general ethno-nationalist mentality from many, but not all Han chinese, encouraged by the central state and the general culture.
      - MadSudaca 5y ago
        I don't think those things necessarily answer the question. Also, how long has China been at extending their influence abroad? How long does these processes take? Obviously, in the case of Europe, this has been going on for centuries. Influence is inevitable because to influence others you have to be open to be influenced. Chinese that go to these countries to make deals, embassies with workers that grow culturally connected, this is the start. Relationships may tighten beyond this. I could go on.

They had the option. Nobody ever forced European countries to accept mass immigration. They could have remained closed and avoided outside cultural influence if they had wanted to, but most of them didn’t.

throwaway_1928 5y ago
In fact, they went around forcing their culture upon others. This is historically a fact. Let's see what the HN censors say.
- Aurelius3 5y ago
  Many did, but many did not, entirety of eastern europe (minus Russia), germany, nordics, balkans, and central european states had no history of colonization or very little, and even then it was not in the regions most associated with migration to europe. Only things besides colonization that come to mind are wars in the middle east, and every country I listed besides germany is too small to matter in that.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    They didn't do much colonization because they were too busy fighting wars with each other... For centuries... WW1 and WW2 and even the current conflict is just singular events in long line of internal wars of Europe. Also something that should not be easily forgotten or ever forgiven is the missionary work by religious groups... Destroying cultures around world. It is sad we have not punished them for that and maybe even banned them to protect the future.
    - Aurelius3 5y ago
      >They didn't do much colonization because they were too busy fighting wars with each other No, nearly every one of the countries I listed had simply no intention or means to colonize effectively at a profit, has nothing to do with preoccupation with continental wars. > Also something that should not be easily forgotten or ever forgiven is the missionary work by religious groups Again, all of the countries I mentioned had very little if not null participation in this, and yet to varying degrees they are being punished for it...
- betaby 5y ago
  Ever heard about Genghis Khan? Mehmed II?
  - School-Cotton 5y ago
    The comment you’re replying to never claimed that Europeans are the only people who have ever imposed their culture on others. As you point out, that claim would be patently absurd.
xienze 5y ago
> Nobody ever forced European countries to accept mass immigration. It came up for a direct vote? Or did politicians who never ran on mass immigration platforms just kinda decide to introduce legislation? People tend to conflate the acceptance of mass immigration in western countries (by characterizing opposition as horribly racist) with tacit approval by the citizens.
- unpopularopp 5y ago
  In some countries it does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Hungarian_migrant_quota_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Hungarian_migrant_quota_r...
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  Of course in representative democracies not every topic is voted on in a referendum. The general failure of anti-immigration parties to win majorities in European countries suggests that most people are either pro-immigration or at least willing to accept it.
  - xienze 5y ago
    > The general failure of anti-immigration parties to win majorities in European countries suggests that most people are either pro-immigration or at least willing to accept it. But again, that ties back to the demonization of being against immigration. Is it _really_ reflective of true popular support if you’re going to be labeled a racist if you don’t vote the right way?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - School-Cotton 5y ago
      Well, that’s why voting is secret.
  - spayce 5y ago
    This idea that the population has a say and gets what it wants… This is most fascinating.

winter_blue 5y ago

The sheer amount of xenophobia and ethnic-nationalism/racism on HN that’s upvoted never surprises. I almost came to this thread expecting a flurry of xenophobic comments, and yup, I found it.

beaconstudios 5y ago
There's quite a few dogwhistlers here for sure but I'd say it's availability bias - people comment more on threads about things they care about. Id say the community skews libertarian, not far right.
ryan93 5y ago
A lot of the immigrants to Europe are ill behaved. No one has problems with Japanese immigrants in Europe.
LudwigNagasena 5y ago
It’s common to see it everywhere. It’s very common to hear blood and soil rhetoric wrt black people or Native Americans, but it’s called progressive and liberal but not xenophobic for some reasons.
- throwaway_1928 5y ago
  > It’s very common to hear blood and soil rhetoric wrt black people or Native Americans, but it’s called progressive and liberal but not xenophobic for some reasons. I believe it is called progressive and liberal because African Americans and Native Americans have historically been enslaved or (nearly) exterminated by Europeans in North America.
thriftwy 5y ago
I came to ask why it's OK for a japanese to be ethnic-nationalist but it's not OK for a european? What's wrong with being ethnic-nationalist?
- spayce 5y ago

MadSudaca 5y ago

This is a tricky situation, because "European" culture is much more disseminated throughout the world. How many countries outside of Europe are majority Christian? How many speak Spanish, French and English? How many have large populations who are 1st or 2nd level descendants of people born in Europe? You cannot influence without being influenced.

Aurelius3 5y ago
>You cannot influence without being influenced. Why not? China has massive influence in many countries, and they seem to retain a lot of their culture while suppressing any internal change/dissent. It would seem to me that many European countries have simply decided they would like to be influenced for whatever reason, not that they are compelled to by some universal rule.
- MadSudaca 5y ago
  How do you know China isn’t being influenced?
  - Aurelius3 5y ago
    (Relatively) Low rates of foreign immigration despite ageing population, strong central goverment with the intention of weakening external and internal influences (See Uyghurs / western chinese territories for an example of internal influences, for external influences the great firewall is an obvious one, but there are many others), and third a general ethno-nationalist mentality from many, but not all Han chinese, encouraged by the central state and the general culture.
    - MadSudaca 5y ago
      I don't think those things necessarily answer the question. Also, how long has China been at extending their influence abroad? How long does these processes take? Obviously, in the case of Europe, this has been going on for centuries. Influence is inevitable because to influence others you have to be open to be influenced. Chinese that go to these countries to make deals, embassies with workers that grow culturally connected, this is the start. Relationships may tighten beyond this. I could go on.