6 ms·

Final year medical students 'can't afford to pay rent'

46 points by LinuxBender 5y ago

rob_c 5y ago
Having studied and living in the uk, is this likely a LONDON problem compounded by the health board not realising most students finish when funding stops. Given this also isn't a surprise (you would be aware of your peers plans whilst a student) budgeting as a student 'should' cover this. Were getting that the "evil" landlord put the rent up, bit it's very important to know what the absolute value here is... Also id be surprised if a personal career development loan wouldn't help here if all else failed.
- skippyboxedhero 5y ago
  No, it isn't just London. One of the students is in Leeds, which is in the North. Definitely improved a lot over the last ten years but is still a fairly typical deprived West Yorkshire town. The problem is a lack of housing (London hasn't become significantly more expensive over the last five years or so, prices in cities outside London have). And the issue with these kind of things is that your money is fixed. I don't think anyone could have predicted their rent going up or down. Inflation is 7% that impacts things. If you are referring to the UK career development loan scheme, you can't fund undergrads and you can't take one out in the middle of a course (I believe, it was the case when I took one) I agree that the picture given in these articles is not very helpful (unf, this is the way the news is going to be for a while, these times are a gold rush for journalists, easy clicks, easy bonuses) but, generally, this kind of thing is an issue. Medical students are the least impacted because they get money (however, they are the most politically organized).
  - rob_c 5y ago
    This story is NOT about how they suddenly can't afford bread and butter due to 7% on average life changes. Nobody working a serious profession such as this is living so close to the lyteral bread-line as to have been impacted by this. If they were it's a very easy argument to make that they've been very naive with their personal financing. (especially when they're supposed to be a trained professional it's much, much more difficult to argue, oh how naive of them to not think of that...)
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > compounded by the health board I don't think the health board have anything to do with it - they don't fund students or set stipends do they? They just do initiatives for public health.
KaiserPro 5y ago
The entire medical system of training in the UK needs reform. You spend six years (more or less) at university, racking up debt. Once you graduate, you spend two years as a "F1/F2", where you basically get bullied and do clerical work. Once you've completed these two years, you can apply for specialist training. You are working 60 hour weeks doing 1/4 night shifts (if you're lucky) and 1/3 weekend. Not only that you move hospital every six months. in london this is kinda feasible, else where it means a 2 hour commute. The starting wage for an F1 is £24-36k After the first two years you can apply for specialist training. However the attrition rate is horrific: https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l523.full https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l523.full loosing 64% of your trainees after 8 years of training is just pathetic. Some of this is government based, but a lot is the medical establishment being utter shits. bullying is rife, the "leaders" have a lot of "I managed it, it didn't do me any harm", there is no incentive to change because everyone rotates every 6months, so why bother putting effort in?
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  Yeah people talk about being a doctor like it's a great and prestigious job. No you get paid a basic salary to work 60 hours, and it's all on-site, unsocial hours, in grim buildings, with little choice about what you do.
  - dankboys 5y ago
    That's fair. Unfortunately in the UK at least, the question of "how come student doctors can't afford rent when we give 25% of tax receipts to the NHS" it's too close to criticism of the NHS, a secular heresy.
- mhh__ 5y ago
  Basically everything in the UK needs reform as far as I'm concerned. We've had the same party in government for 12 years now and it shows.
  - Beltalowda 5y ago
    That's pretty much the exact same thing people said at the end of the Blair/Brown Labour years. And their decade+ of power isn't a decade I'm looking at with great fondness either (politically speaking anyway). I think the bigger issue is just that the political system doesn't work very well, and hasn't for quite some time. Part of this is due to the system itself (e.g. first-past-the-post constituencies), and part of it is cultural (e.g. a nasty mean-spirited press insistently ridiculing politicians for a slightly awkward photo of eating a sandwich).
RealStickman_ 5y ago
OT: the quotes had me very confused for a second. Who uses single quotes for this purposes? Why wouldn't you use double quotes?
- bidirectional 5y ago
  Single quotes are more popular in British English.
- cafard 5y ago
  The British convention used to be to use single quotes for the outermost level, then double inside. But I see that the main article follows the American practice of double quotes outside. So I don't know.
  - RealStickman_ 5y ago
    Interesting, thank you.
rolph 5y ago
back in the 70's there was a US program "Trapper John M.D." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapper_John,_M.D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapper_John,_M.D. one of the characters lived in a camper [caravan] out in the parking lot. the concept has been _normalized_ over here for some time.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  This made me curious so I went and watched a bit of it. He won it in a craps game, stopped working and drove it around the country until he ran out of money: https://youtu.be/c7bDKT8Xc6U?t=1040 https://youtu.be/c7bDKT8Xc6U?t=1040 Not quite a story of not being able to afford rent, and a convenient device in a TV show.
asdff 5y ago
All year graduate students can't afford to pay rent in much of CA. Even with what is considered a "good" stipend rent is eating your takehome up unless you split a bedroom. Kinda ridiculous considering all the responsibility and expertise required of grad students who are conducting research, designing experiments, writing manuscripts, grant proposals, or designing and teaching college coursework to undergraduates. The fact that your salary might quadruple or more the day you graduate and walk into industry just shows how wage depressed these necessary skills are within academia.
- willnonya 5y ago
  - kingnothing 5y ago
    You're being downvoted because you aren't contributing anything to the conversation. Please have a look at the guidelines here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- djbebs 5y ago
  Sounds like the world is telling those graduates they should stop wasting their time in academia and move to industry.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    That's the problem, the world is telling them to do something detrimental to itself. That is the contradiction.
  - uluyol 5y ago
    We should also tell people who are teachers and other professions to all quit their jobs and work in tech too. That will solve all pay related problems, right?
    - 5y ago
uluyol 5y ago
The US system also has plenty of issues, but does anyone know why? Medical doctors are highly skilled workers and there seems to be an insatiable demand for more of them. So why aren't they in a good negotiating position? Why aren't established doctors trying to help with the madness — especially those that have kids who are trying to enter the field.
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  The wages in medical field in the US are pretty good compared to Europe. Probably some would even say outrageous, I'm sure its part of the high cost per patient care in addition to layers of complexity with insurance sector.
  - uluyol 5y ago
    I don't know much about Europe, but are comparing wages during residency, or after? Residents have 80+ hour weeks, $200k+ debt, and only a $50k salary. It takes a very long time (undergrad + med school + residency + more to specialize) before the perks of being a doctor kick in in the US.
ProllyInfamous 5y ago
I attended medical school for one year -- before realizing that there were literally a thousand other things I'd rather do than become a physician. Now, about twelve years since leaving that profession/lifestyle, I'm very happy with my decision. Recently I met with one of my childhood heroes, who is now back in retirement as our local community park maintainer... and it was glad to see him "living his dream." I don't think I would ever be so foolish again to stake so much capital/time on a single-track career. You cannot pay medical doctors enough for the sacrifices almost all of them have made. It has taken me years to not be drowning in student loan obligations! I personally am very fortunate with my living/rent situation; cannot imagine starting a medical training at present.
timcavel 5y ago

46 points by LinuxBender 5y ago

Having studied and living in the uk, is this likely a LONDON problem compounded by the health board not realising most students finish when funding stops. Given this also isn't a surprise (you would be aware of your peers plans whilst a student) budgeting as a student 'should' cover this. Were getting that the "evil" landlord put the rent up, bit it's very important to know what the absolute value here is... Also id be surprised if a personal career development loan wouldn't help here if all else failed.

skippyboxedhero 5y ago
No, it isn't just London. One of the students is in Leeds, which is in the North. Definitely improved a lot over the last ten years but is still a fairly typical deprived West Yorkshire town. The problem is a lack of housing (London hasn't become significantly more expensive over the last five years or so, prices in cities outside London have). And the issue with these kind of things is that your money is fixed. I don't think anyone could have predicted their rent going up or down. Inflation is 7% that impacts things. If you are referring to the UK career development loan scheme, you can't fund undergrads and you can't take one out in the middle of a course (I believe, it was the case when I took one) I agree that the picture given in these articles is not very helpful (unf, this is the way the news is going to be for a while, these times are a gold rush for journalists, easy clicks, easy bonuses) but, generally, this kind of thing is an issue. Medical students are the least impacted because they get money (however, they are the most politically organized).
- rob_c 5y ago
  This story is NOT about how they suddenly can't afford bread and butter due to 7% on average life changes. Nobody working a serious profession such as this is living so close to the lyteral bread-line as to have been impacted by this. If they were it's a very easy argument to make that they've been very naive with their personal financing. (especially when they're supposed to be a trained professional it's much, much more difficult to argue, oh how naive of them to not think of that...)
chrisseaton 5y ago
> compounded by the health board I don't think the health board have anything to do with it - they don't fund students or set stipends do they? They just do initiatives for public health.

KaiserPro 5y ago

The entire medical system of training in the UK needs reform. You spend six years (more or less) at university, racking up debt. Once you graduate, you spend two years as a "F1/F2", where you basically get bullied and do clerical work. Once you've completed these two years, you can apply for specialist training. You are working 60 hour weeks doing 1/4 night shifts (if you're lucky) and 1/3 weekend. Not only that you move hospital every six months. in london this is kinda feasible, else where it means a 2 hour commute. The starting wage for an F1 is £24-36k After the first two years you can apply for specialist training. However the attrition rate is horrific: https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l523.full https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l523.full loosing 64% of your trainees after 8 years of training is just pathetic. Some of this is government based, but a lot is the medical establishment being utter shits. bullying is rife, the "leaders" have a lot of "I managed it, it didn't do me any harm", there is no incentive to change because everyone rotates every 6months, so why bother putting effort in?

chrisseaton 5y ago
Yeah people talk about being a doctor like it's a great and prestigious job. No you get paid a basic salary to work 60 hours, and it's all on-site, unsocial hours, in grim buildings, with little choice about what you do.
- dankboys 5y ago
  That's fair. Unfortunately in the UK at least, the question of "how come student doctors can't afford rent when we give 25% of tax receipts to the NHS" it's too close to criticism of the NHS, a secular heresy.
mhh__ 5y ago
Basically everything in the UK needs reform as far as I'm concerned. We've had the same party in government for 12 years now and it shows.
- Beltalowda 5y ago
  That's pretty much the exact same thing people said at the end of the Blair/Brown Labour years. And their decade+ of power isn't a decade I'm looking at with great fondness either (politically speaking anyway). I think the bigger issue is just that the political system doesn't work very well, and hasn't for quite some time. Part of this is due to the system itself (e.g. first-past-the-post constituencies), and part of it is cultural (e.g. a nasty mean-spirited press insistently ridiculing politicians for a slightly awkward photo of eating a sandwich).

RealStickman_ 5y ago

OT: the quotes had me very confused for a second. Who uses single quotes for this purposes? Why wouldn't you use double quotes?

bidirectional 5y ago
Single quotes are more popular in British English.
cafard 5y ago
The British convention used to be to use single quotes for the outermost level, then double inside. But I see that the main article follows the American practice of double quotes outside. So I don't know.
- RealStickman_ 5y ago
  Interesting, thank you.

rolph 5y ago

back in the 70's there was a US program "Trapper John M.D." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapper_John,_M.D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapper_John,_M.D. one of the characters lived in a camper [caravan] out in the parking lot. the concept has been _normalized_ over here for some time.

maxerickson 5y ago
This made me curious so I went and watched a bit of it. He won it in a craps game, stopped working and drove it around the country until he ran out of money: https://youtu.be/c7bDKT8Xc6U?t=1040 https://youtu.be/c7bDKT8Xc6U?t=1040 Not quite a story of not being able to afford rent, and a convenient device in a TV show.

asdff 5y ago

All year graduate students can't afford to pay rent in much of CA. Even with what is considered a "good" stipend rent is eating your takehome up unless you split a bedroom. Kinda ridiculous considering all the responsibility and expertise required of grad students who are conducting research, designing experiments, writing manuscripts, grant proposals, or designing and teaching college coursework to undergraduates. The fact that your salary might quadruple or more the day you graduate and walk into industry just shows how wage depressed these necessary skills are within academia.

willnonya 5y ago
- kingnothing 5y ago
  You're being downvoted because you aren't contributing anything to the conversation. Please have a look at the guidelines here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
djbebs 5y ago
Sounds like the world is telling those graduates they should stop wasting their time in academia and move to industry.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  That's the problem, the world is telling them to do something detrimental to itself. That is the contradiction.
- uluyol 5y ago
  We should also tell people who are teachers and other professions to all quit their jobs and work in tech too. That will solve all pay related problems, right?
  - 5y ago

uluyol 5y ago

The US system also has plenty of issues, but does anyone know why? Medical doctors are highly skilled workers and there seems to be an insatiable demand for more of them. So why aren't they in a good negotiating position? Why aren't established doctors trying to help with the madness — especially those that have kids who are trying to enter the field.

Dma54rhs 5y ago
The wages in medical field in the US are pretty good compared to Europe. Probably some would even say outrageous, I'm sure its part of the high cost per patient care in addition to layers of complexity with insurance sector.
- uluyol 5y ago
  I don't know much about Europe, but are comparing wages during residency, or after? Residents have 80+ hour weeks, $200k+ debt, and only a $50k salary. It takes a very long time (undergrad + med school + residency + more to specialize) before the perks of being a doctor kick in in the US.

ProllyInfamous 5y ago

I attended medical school for one year -- before realizing that there were literally a thousand other things I'd rather do than become a physician. Now, about twelve years since leaving that profession/lifestyle, I'm very happy with my decision. Recently I met with one of my childhood heroes, who is now back in retirement as our local community park maintainer... and it was glad to see him "living his dream." I don't think I would ever be so foolish again to stake so much capital/time on a single-track career. You cannot pay medical doctors enough for the sacrifices almost all of them have made. It has taken me years to not be drowning in student loan obligations! I personally am very fortunate with my living/rent situation; cannot imagine starting a medical training at present.

timcavel 5y ago