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It's far far creepier to be overly concerned about plastic waste than about the gasoline cars on the road. Plastic waste has almost zero impact, zero, compared

It's far far creepier to be overly concerned about plastic waste than about the gasoline cars on the road. Plastic waste has almost zero impact, zero, compared to the gasoline, brake dust, and tire microplastics coming off of cars. Where do all the microplastics in bodies of water come from? It's not plastic waste in landfills, it's tires on the road, which wear down and wash into bodies of water. Every single time your drive. Recently it was found that an essential chemical in tires for hardening them breaks down into neurotoxins that are killing massive amounts of salmon in the pacific northwest. Where is the public outcry? Nowhere!! So that is what incredibly creepy: people pretend to care about the environment to the point they make massive judgements over plastic waste, but they refuse to even consider the amount of driving that's forced onto nearly every person in the US, and we don't even consider ways to reduce that environmental impact, or allow people to even choose to live with less impact. Instead we ban the types of city planning that would allow people to go about their daily lives without the climate destroying, COPD causing, microplastic creating form of travel: cars.

andrewzah 5y ago
Who is “we”? It’s not surprising or creepy that people focus on what they actually can control. None of us realistically can change the fact that America is built around roads. Not everyone can work from home. People drive not because they want to, but because they have to. Criticizing that is a highly privileged take.
- epistasis 5y ago
  "We" is our society and laws and common discussion topics and social mores, etc. Let's keep on using the "creepy" adjective here, because I think I applies especially to this comment, even more than the prior one. Who sets the laws for how buildings are built and whether we have to drive or not? Local communities (at least in the US). So people can get involved, change what is legal and not legal to build, and advocate for it on the local level. That's what I have been doing for the last five or so years. And what I find realt creepy about the experience is how people will go out of their way to criticize others for small, meaningless actions like reducing single waste plastic, but go ballistic at the idea that we should allow some people to live in a way that doesn't force them to drive every single day and for every trip out of the house. > People drive not because they want to, but because they have to. If that is the case, then why don't they make their voices heard? I certainly don't hear anybody voicing that when we do have a chance to allow communities to be built that don't force driving. Instead I head person after person after person demanding that housing and mixed use communities be banned. At one of the meetings I was at, trying to advocate for a mixed use building, some commenter mentioned an aside of having all single use drinking containers have a tax. None, not a single one, of the board members expressed enthusiasm for this mixed use building that, as a single building, would have far bigger impact than banning all single use cups in the city. But boy did the board take up the idea of taxing single use containers, and not two years later we have a $0.25 charge when you get a to go cup at a coffee shop, but we still have a huuuuuuuuuge fight over every single bit of environment saving buildings. > Criticizing that is a highly privileged take. That's utter BS, and a commonly used dodge by people who don't want any change. Of course we can criticize a system, particularly as we change it. Saying that it's "privileged" to point out that people are forced to drive, which is what I said, is utter nonsense. And frankly, extremely creepy. People are really creepy about cars. They will excuse them, apologize for them, ignore all the damage they do, and even criticize people that point out these massive flaws, before people will admit that maybe we should st least let some people live without them.
  - coryrc 5y ago
    > At one of the meetings I was at, trying to advocate for a mixed use building Thank you for trying to make the world better. I try to make the same case as you. I think people get off on the controlling part (banning plastic bags) and just use environmentalism as a cover.
  - andrewzah 5y ago
    The fact of the matter is that the US is laid out in a way that cars are necessary for most places. Even if you actually get people to vote and participate in their local politics, that does not change how things are already laid out. It's not going to magically fix neighborhoods being 10-20 mins driving away from grocery stores and businesses. I -want- to reduce car usage, but I'm also realistic. "If that is the case, then why don't they make their voices heard?" Some people do. See strong towns for example. Yeah, there's also NIMBY-ism. Turns out people working minimum wage jobs (who have to commute because they can't afford to live downtown) don't have as much time or energy to participate in local politics as well-off folks. But let's keep on blaming people!! Also, I'm not sure if you understand what creepy means. Even if your points may be correct, I'm disinclined to engage with someone who calls everyone who doesn't exactly agree with them "creepy".
oblak 5y ago
I didn't want to get in an argument with with you because you seem to presume A LOT. So much "we" and "people" in your posts. This is one of the reasons your take frustrated me as much as it did. Mid 20s, still high on hormons? The way you argue is pointing out things that you do, and applying said behaviours to everyone else, or at least the the people on this site. Again, very frustrating. I, for one, do not drive a car. Nor does my wife. We only use our tiny - by your US standards - every few months, and just for a few hundred kilometers. So yeah, you don't get to tell me how much I pollute or waste because you don't know me. I didn't say anything about cars until now but I hate almost everything them and especially the people who "can't imagine life without" them. Your initial post was a really bad take. At least admit to that. My response was a shit one. See, if I can take some responsibility, so can you
- epistasis 5y ago
  Environmental protection is not something that's solved by personal choice, it's solved by changing our system to a circular economy. Perhaps individual choice can pioneer new ways to live, and demonstrate that other lifestyles are possible that are just as fulfilling and convenient as more environmentally damaging ones. But in the end, environmental protection is a "we" and "people" problem not a "me" or "I" problem. I did not make the post you were responding to. So asking me to take responsibility, accusing me of being young and full of hormones, is yet more of a shit post in your part. I tend to find that in my (many more than 20) years on this planet that when responding to someone, the utmost important thing to speak the truth, and secondly to respond in kind in order to be most likely to understood by the person you are talking to. So if you apologize for your post, I too apologize for responding in kind.
  - oblak 5y ago
    Fair enough. I had no idea I wasn't talking to "maxerickson". The 20s and the request for an apology thing was aimed at that person's initial comment that I responded directly to. Your contribution did not ask for that. I am sorry. I do agree policy is the most important factor. But policy is not created in a complete vacuum. What the vast majority of people do and think is important. The outrageous amounts of perfectly good plastic that is thrown away is criminal. Just for food alone. Dear god. Downplaying all this completely unnecessary waste because car fuel, tires and brakes pollute as well is odd. Especially given the fact that plastic waste is not just containers dumped in a landfill. Plastic bags are fucking disgusting and their remnants have be found virtually everywhere on the planet, including oceans, mountains, and jungles.

andrewzah 5y ago

Who is “we”? It’s not surprising or creepy that people focus on what they actually can control. None of us realistically can change the fact that America is built around roads. Not everyone can work from home. People drive not because they want to, but because they have to. Criticizing that is a highly privileged take.

epistasis 5y ago
"We" is our society and laws and common discussion topics and social mores, etc. Let's keep on using the "creepy" adjective here, because I think I applies especially to this comment, even more than the prior one. Who sets the laws for how buildings are built and whether we have to drive or not? Local communities (at least in the US). So people can get involved, change what is legal and not legal to build, and advocate for it on the local level. That's what I have been doing for the last five or so years. And what I find realt creepy about the experience is how people will go out of their way to criticize others for small, meaningless actions like reducing single waste plastic, but go ballistic at the idea that we should allow some people to live in a way that doesn't force them to drive every single day and for every trip out of the house. > People drive not because they want to, but because they have to. If that is the case, then why don't they make their voices heard? I certainly don't hear anybody voicing that when we do have a chance to allow communities to be built that don't force driving. Instead I head person after person after person demanding that housing and mixed use communities be banned. At one of the meetings I was at, trying to advocate for a mixed use building, some commenter mentioned an aside of having all single use drinking containers have a tax. None, not a single one, of the board members expressed enthusiasm for this mixed use building that, as a single building, would have far bigger impact than banning all single use cups in the city. But boy did the board take up the idea of taxing single use containers, and not two years later we have a $0.25 charge when you get a to go cup at a coffee shop, but we still have a huuuuuuuuuge fight over every single bit of environment saving buildings. > Criticizing that is a highly privileged take. That's utter BS, and a commonly used dodge by people who don't want any change. Of course we can criticize a system, particularly as we change it. Saying that it's "privileged" to point out that people are forced to drive, which is what I said, is utter nonsense. And frankly, extremely creepy. People are really creepy about cars. They will excuse them, apologize for them, ignore all the damage they do, and even criticize people that point out these massive flaws, before people will admit that maybe we should st least let some people live without them.
- coryrc 5y ago
  > At one of the meetings I was at, trying to advocate for a mixed use building Thank you for trying to make the world better. I try to make the same case as you. I think people get off on the controlling part (banning plastic bags) and just use environmentalism as a cover.
- andrewzah 5y ago
  The fact of the matter is that the US is laid out in a way that cars are necessary for most places. Even if you actually get people to vote and participate in their local politics, that does not change how things are already laid out. It's not going to magically fix neighborhoods being 10-20 mins driving away from grocery stores and businesses. I -want- to reduce car usage, but I'm also realistic. "If that is the case, then why don't they make their voices heard?" Some people do. See strong towns for example. Yeah, there's also NIMBY-ism. Turns out people working minimum wage jobs (who have to commute because they can't afford to live downtown) don't have as much time or energy to participate in local politics as well-off folks. But let's keep on blaming people!! Also, I'm not sure if you understand what creepy means. Even if your points may be correct, I'm disinclined to engage with someone who calls everyone who doesn't exactly agree with them "creepy".

oblak 5y ago

I didn't want to get in an argument with with you because you seem to presume A LOT. So much "we" and "people" in your posts. This is one of the reasons your take frustrated me as much as it did. Mid 20s, still high on hormons? The way you argue is pointing out things that you do, and applying said behaviours to everyone else, or at least the the people on this site. Again, very frustrating. I, for one, do not drive a car. Nor does my wife. We only use our tiny - by your US standards - every few months, and just for a few hundred kilometers. So yeah, you don't get to tell me how much I pollute or waste because you don't know me. I didn't say anything about cars until now but I hate almost everything them and especially the people who "can't imagine life without" them. Your initial post was a really bad take. At least admit to that. My response was a shit one. See, if I can take some responsibility, so can you

epistasis 5y ago
Environmental protection is not something that's solved by personal choice, it's solved by changing our system to a circular economy. Perhaps individual choice can pioneer new ways to live, and demonstrate that other lifestyles are possible that are just as fulfilling and convenient as more environmentally damaging ones. But in the end, environmental protection is a "we" and "people" problem not a "me" or "I" problem. I did not make the post you were responding to. So asking me to take responsibility, accusing me of being young and full of hormones, is yet more of a shit post in your part. I tend to find that in my (many more than 20) years on this planet that when responding to someone, the utmost important thing to speak the truth, and secondly to respond in kind in order to be most likely to understood by the person you are talking to. So if you apologize for your post, I too apologize for responding in kind.
- oblak 5y ago
  Fair enough. I had no idea I wasn't talking to "maxerickson". The 20s and the request for an apology thing was aimed at that person's initial comment that I responded directly to. Your contribution did not ask for that. I am sorry. I do agree policy is the most important factor. But policy is not created in a complete vacuum. What the vast majority of people do and think is important. The outrageous amounts of perfectly good plastic that is thrown away is criminal. Just for food alone. Dear god. Downplaying all this completely unnecessary waste because car fuel, tires and brakes pollute as well is odd. Especially given the fact that plastic waste is not just containers dumped in a landfill. Plastic bags are fucking disgusting and their remnants have be found virtually everywhere on the planet, including oceans, mountains, and jungles.