5 ms·

They can just as easily cause mental illness. Marijuana can cause psychosis [1] but the cannabis lobby pretty much won and there's nothing on the packaging indi

They can just as easily cause mental illness. Marijuana can cause psychosis [1] but the cannabis lobby pretty much won and there's nothing on the packaging indicating this risk. Cannabis is involved in approximately 50% of psychosis, schizophrenia, and schizophreniform psychosis cases. Thats significant, wouldn't you say? In the same vein, DMT raped my brain and I felt like a fucking husk for two years after breaking through. These things are oversold. We should legalize them, but lets not kid ourselves about how potent and powerful these substances are.

germinalphrase 4y ago
“ Cannabis is involved in approximately 50% of psychosis, schizophrenia, and schizophreniform psychosis cases. Thats significant, wouldn't you say?” Maybe, maybe not. Nicotine was (is?) a very common self-medication for schizophrenia. So much so that it became a trope in movies, etc (e.g. “Clean, Shaven”). If a majority of people with schizophrenia smoked cigarettes, would we argue that nicotine is implicated in the development of that condition? My instinct is certainly that you’re right, but the direction of causality could simply be backwards too.
- goldenkey 4y ago
  Thank you for highlighting the issue of correlation vs causality vs backwards causality. Nicotine is an antipsychotic, so psychosis generally leads to nicotine use as it's much more user-friendly than prescription antipsychotics. About the movie tropes, nicotine is an acetylcholinergic agent similar to caffeine. These agents act as nootropic stimulants hence the movie tropes. Both natural and synthetic insecticides have been known to poison people due to their potent acetylcholinergic activity. [1] THC is a different beast. It's well accepted that THC is psychedelic enough to bring out latent schizophrenia. What most folks don't know about is the temporary psychosis it can cause. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organophosphate_poisoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organophosphate_poisoning
curun1r 4y ago
> Cannabis is involved in approximately 50% of psychosis, schizophrenia, and schizophreniform psychosis cases. Thats significant, wouldn't you say? Absolutely not. Alcohol is involved in 60% of the snake bites in the US. It’s easy to see the causal link. But that isn’t a reason to avoid alcohol or that alcohol puts you at a significant risk of being bitten by a snake. And that’s because alcohol consumption is common and snake bites are rare. Similarly, cannabis consumption is common and the conditions you list are rare. Even if there is a causal link there, and that’s a big if, that’s not a reason to avoid cannabis. There’s no reason to assume or even worry about being in the sub-1% group.
- goldenkey 4y ago
  It's not rare at all. Every practicing psychiatrist I've talked to that works part-time at mental hospitals, have told me they see cannabis related temporary psychosis on the regular. The studies show it to be common. Anecdotes show it to be common. And yet, it's not common - what gives? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30902669/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30902669/
  - curun1r 4y ago
    Studies absolutely don't show it to be common. Here's a meta analysis [0] of many that, as I mentioned, shows it below 1% of the population. That's rare. Don't confuse it being easy to find with it being common. Whenever you have a large number of people, you're going to reliably find rare traits and conditions. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5896987/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5896987/
    - goldenkey 4y ago
      The majority of cannabis legalization has occurred in the last few years. The paper you linked uses decades old data and provides statistics on overall incidence of schizophrenia with varying durations of prevalence. Bayes rule applies here - not everyone will go buy cannabis and use it daily. Unless a study is accounting for these factors, it's useless in making a determination on the connection between psychosis and cannabis. Your own point applies, frequency must be adjusted for, by an understanding of priors.
jotm 4y ago
Cannabis is... overrated. It is rather similar to alcohol in that it helps a bit, but with prolonged use or regular abuse the downsides quickly overtake the benefits. It was a bit useful for me for a while, but there are better alternatives out there. And choosing a good strain is nigh impossible these days unless you grow it yourself - the high THC low CBD stuff preferred by sellers even in regions where it's legal is only good for fun/recreational use, not helping with depression, anxiety or pain.
- goldenkey 4y ago
  Let's adjust the statement a bit. It's overrated. Still phenomenal compared to alcohol -- which is one of the weakest drugs per unit mass or volume. Literally only 2% of blood ethanol gets to the brain, so most of what folks drink is actually performing organ damage, not CNS effects. Like you said, Cannabis is a wildly diverse plant. Cannabinoids like CBG, CBC, and CBDV are extraordinary anti-inflammatory and anti-neoplastic agents. 100% agree with you and the literature does too. Daily use of high THC / low CBD cannabis is the main driver of the temporary psychosis we are seeing across cities that have legalized marijuana. Studies show that CBD is actually antipsychotic whereas THC is the opposite, so we have essentially bred the plant into a tripping device versus what it used to be, a more cerebral relaxing experience.
  - asguy 4y ago
    > Let's adjust the statement a bit. It's overrated. Still phenomenal compared to alcohol -- which is one of the weakest drugs per unit mass or volume. Literally only 2% of blood ethanol gets to the brain, so most of what folks drink is actually performing organ damage, not CNS effects. Most people don’t consume alcohol because of its efficiency. If they did, they’d be doing everclear shots or boofing it. They wouldn’t be mixing cocktails, aging whisky for decades, or pairing wines with food. Weed as a drug isn’t “phenomenal” compared to alcohol, unless you ignore most of the reasons people drink.
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    > It's overrated. Still phenomenal compared to alcohol Most things that don’t leave me with a splitting headache and day long nausea are great compared to alcohol.
the_only_law 4y ago
Alcohol can cause psychosis and yet most who consume it never reach that level.
- goldenkey 4y ago
  No, alcohol is a depressant that acts on the GABA B receptor. It would be similar to antipsychotics or antianxiety drugs. Good try though.

germinalphrase 4y ago

“ Cannabis is involved in approximately 50% of psychosis, schizophrenia, and schizophreniform psychosis cases. Thats significant, wouldn't you say?” Maybe, maybe not. Nicotine was (is?) a very common self-medication for schizophrenia. So much so that it became a trope in movies, etc (e.g. “Clean, Shaven”). If a majority of people with schizophrenia smoked cigarettes, would we argue that nicotine is implicated in the development of that condition? My instinct is certainly that you’re right, but the direction of causality could simply be backwards too.

goldenkey 4y ago
Thank you for highlighting the issue of correlation vs causality vs backwards causality. Nicotine is an antipsychotic, so psychosis generally leads to nicotine use as it's much more user-friendly than prescription antipsychotics. About the movie tropes, nicotine is an acetylcholinergic agent similar to caffeine. These agents act as nootropic stimulants hence the movie tropes. Both natural and synthetic insecticides have been known to poison people due to their potent acetylcholinergic activity. [1] THC is a different beast. It's well accepted that THC is psychedelic enough to bring out latent schizophrenia. What most folks don't know about is the temporary psychosis it can cause. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organophosphate_poisoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organophosphate_poisoning

curun1r 4y ago

> Cannabis is involved in approximately 50% of psychosis, schizophrenia, and schizophreniform psychosis cases. Thats significant, wouldn't you say? Absolutely not. Alcohol is involved in 60% of the snake bites in the US. It’s easy to see the causal link. But that isn’t a reason to avoid alcohol or that alcohol puts you at a significant risk of being bitten by a snake. And that’s because alcohol consumption is common and snake bites are rare. Similarly, cannabis consumption is common and the conditions you list are rare. Even if there is a causal link there, and that’s a big if, that’s not a reason to avoid cannabis. There’s no reason to assume or even worry about being in the sub-1% group.

goldenkey 4y ago
It's not rare at all. Every practicing psychiatrist I've talked to that works part-time at mental hospitals, have told me they see cannabis related temporary psychosis on the regular. The studies show it to be common. Anecdotes show it to be common. And yet, it's not common - what gives? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30902669/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30902669/
- curun1r 4y ago
  Studies absolutely don't show it to be common. Here's a meta analysis [0] of many that, as I mentioned, shows it below 1% of the population. That's rare. Don't confuse it being easy to find with it being common. Whenever you have a large number of people, you're going to reliably find rare traits and conditions. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5896987/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5896987/
  - goldenkey 4y ago
    The majority of cannabis legalization has occurred in the last few years. The paper you linked uses decades old data and provides statistics on overall incidence of schizophrenia with varying durations of prevalence. Bayes rule applies here - not everyone will go buy cannabis and use it daily. Unless a study is accounting for these factors, it's useless in making a determination on the connection between psychosis and cannabis. Your own point applies, frequency must be adjusted for, by an understanding of priors.

jotm 4y ago

Cannabis is... overrated. It is rather similar to alcohol in that it helps a bit, but with prolonged use or regular abuse the downsides quickly overtake the benefits. It was a bit useful for me for a while, but there are better alternatives out there. And choosing a good strain is nigh impossible these days unless you grow it yourself - the high THC low CBD stuff preferred by sellers even in regions where it's legal is only good for fun/recreational use, not helping with depression, anxiety or pain.

goldenkey 4y ago
Let's adjust the statement a bit. It's overrated. Still phenomenal compared to alcohol -- which is one of the weakest drugs per unit mass or volume. Literally only 2% of blood ethanol gets to the brain, so most of what folks drink is actually performing organ damage, not CNS effects. Like you said, Cannabis is a wildly diverse plant. Cannabinoids like CBG, CBC, and CBDV are extraordinary anti-inflammatory and anti-neoplastic agents. 100% agree with you and the literature does too. Daily use of high THC / low CBD cannabis is the main driver of the temporary psychosis we are seeing across cities that have legalized marijuana. Studies show that CBD is actually antipsychotic whereas THC is the opposite, so we have essentially bred the plant into a tripping device versus what it used to be, a more cerebral relaxing experience.
- asguy 4y ago
  > Let's adjust the statement a bit. It's overrated. Still phenomenal compared to alcohol -- which is one of the weakest drugs per unit mass or volume. Literally only 2% of blood ethanol gets to the brain, so most of what folks drink is actually performing organ damage, not CNS effects. Most people don’t consume alcohol because of its efficiency. If they did, they’d be doing everclear shots or boofing it. They wouldn’t be mixing cocktails, aging whisky for decades, or pairing wines with food. Weed as a drug isn’t “phenomenal” compared to alcohol, unless you ignore most of the reasons people drink.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  > It's overrated. Still phenomenal compared to alcohol Most things that don’t leave me with a splitting headache and day long nausea are great compared to alcohol.

the_only_law 4y ago

Alcohol can cause psychosis and yet most who consume it never reach that level.

goldenkey 4y ago
No, alcohol is a depressant that acts on the GABA B receptor. It would be similar to antipsychotics or antianxiety drugs. Good try though.