5 ms·

It's difficult to overstate how pervasive the 808 cowbell was in early hip-hop, funk, and R&B music during the 80's. To this day it's a sound that pleasantly no

It's difficult to overstate how pervasive the 808 cowbell was in early hip-hop, funk, and R&B music during the 80's. To this day it's a sound that pleasantly nostalgic and takes me right back to my younger days. Something I always wondered about: it seemed like not all 808 cowbells were exactly the same. Some seemed to nail a very in-tune perfect fifth. While others were just shy of a perfect fifth, giving more of a sour sound which I think was more common. In Bar-Kays' "Sexomatic," the 808 cowbell's pitch raised up a whole step to match the song's key, but it also sounds like a very in-tune perfect fifth: (3:55) https://youtu.be/rqWfERqQlk4?t=235 https://youtu.be/rqWfERqQlk4?t=235 In 2 Live Crew's "Mr. Mixx On The Mix!!" the 808 cowbell has the more sour sound: (3:19) https://youtu.be/yNiAYpd1f84?t=199 https://youtu.be/yNiAYpd1f84?t=199 The bread board project was producing an interval that was just shy of a perfect fifth, making it closer to 2 Live Crew's 808 in my ears. I always wondered if slight variations and and manufacturing anomalies in the analog components accounted for this difference or if something else going on. If OP is in this thread, I'd love to hear your opinion and conjecture on this. (And I'd also like to thank you for the GREAT write-up and YouTube clip. LOVED this.)

S_A_P 4y ago
I’ve owned a few 808s and sampled all of them. They were indeed all different sounding. The cowbells are one exception and sounded more like the 2 Live Crew example. Most of the variation was in the hi hat and cymbals. Which IIRC is 6 square waves and a noise source.
- chriscjcj 4y ago
  Very interesting! Thank you! I did a little looking and found this FWIW... I noticed in OP's post that the two frequencies for the cowbell are 540hz and 800hz (although I don't see where this is denoted on the original schematics.) But we'll assume they're accurate numbers. While a perfect fifth is a difference of 7 semitones, this produces a difference of only 6.804 semitones. It would seem that its designers didn't have a perfect fifth in mind. Also, 540Hz is C#5 -45 cents and 800Hz is G5 +35 cents. So neither note seems intended to correspond to any natural key.
  - max-m 4y ago
    One of the diagrams shows the frequencies as 1.85ms and 1.25ms, 540.5 and 800 Hz respectively.
  - smoyer 4y ago
    In the original circuit,the same RC network is used for both the attack and decay so that circuit will indeed produce a 1:1 mark:space ratio.
    - JKCalhoun 4y ago
      Curious about the term "1:1 mark:space ratio" since it was also in the article. I would have used the term "50% duty cycle".
      - smoyer 4y ago
        I purposely repeated the OP's wording but since we're talking about an astable multivibrator,frequency and duty cycle (in percent) makes sense. I did a lot of circuit design for communications systems and I associate the words mark and space with ones and zeroes in a frame/word.
        JKCalhoun 4y ago
        I wondered if it was an English (not American) phrasing.
        greenyoda 4y ago
        More on the origins of the terminology here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_and_space https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_and_space
  - dahart 4y ago
    > While a perfect fifth is a difference of 7 semitones, this produces a difference of only 6.804 semitones. It would seem that its designers didn't have a perfect fifth in mind. Remember that 7 semitones is not a perfect fifth. (Note this depends on your definition of perfect fifth, some people allow for being close, since equal temperament is so common.) While a perfect fifth is a 3:2 ratio of frequency, seven semitones isn’t exactly 1.5, it’s more like 1.498. 800/540 is ~ 1.48, so I definitely agree the designers weren’t going for a fifth, very likely they wanted some beat interference to give it a nice metallic warble.
tiahura 4y ago
I think yours may be the first HN post linking The 2 Live Crew. And, indeed, Mr. Mixx is way way under appreciated.
tlb 4y ago
The schematic in the article shows trimpots controlling the 2 frequencies, so it was probably adjustable with a screwdriver.
- chriscjcj 4y ago
  You are right! 4:52 https://youtu.be/rPOqYHMpvqY?t=292 https://youtu.be/rPOqYHMpvqY?t=292
TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
Some of the 808's instruments/parts have trimmers, as mentioned below. But generally for analog, component tolerances are either 1, 5, or 10%. 1% is pretty audible on oscillators, and 10% is pretty audible on filters. So each instance of an untrimmed analog synth and drum machine will sound slightly different, even if they're coming off the same production line and using the same circuitry. Component values also drift over time, so a contemporary 808 is not going to sound the same as it did when it was shipped in the 80s. Basically analog's inaccuracies add character, detail, and interesting distortion. You can emulate them digitally, but emulating all of them accurately and convincingly is really quite hard.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I understand temperature affects the frequency of some oscillators as well. Is that a possible explanation as well? (I assume for crystal-based oscillators that would not be the case, but for musical/analog oscillators I assume these are not crystal derived).
  - stephlow 4y ago
    This is correct. I have a couple of analog oscillators in my modular rack and the case needs to heat up for a couple of minutes before they generate a stable pitch. Not familiar with the exact reasons to be honest.
    - colechristensen 4y ago
      Basically all components have temperature dependent values
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      Higher quality equipment that needs a stable timebase will use ovenized oscillators with an integrated heater and a control loop to maintain a stable temperature. These are all inaccurate before they are up to operating temperature.
    - dylan604 4y ago
Bjartr 4y ago
The 808 in particular has an additional twist. The transistors used in it were out-of-spec rejected parts as a cost savings measure. So recreations and repairs can have difficulty recapturing the signature sound if they go only by part number. https://secretlifeofsynthesizers.com/the-strange-heart-of-the-roland-tr-808/ https://secretlifeofsynthesizers.com/the-strange-heart-of-th...

S_A_P 4y ago

I’ve owned a few 808s and sampled all of them. They were indeed all different sounding. The cowbells are one exception and sounded more like the 2 Live Crew example. Most of the variation was in the hi hat and cymbals. Which IIRC is 6 square waves and a noise source.

chriscjcj 4y ago
Very interesting! Thank you! I did a little looking and found this FWIW... I noticed in OP's post that the two frequencies for the cowbell are 540hz and 800hz (although I don't see where this is denoted on the original schematics.) But we'll assume they're accurate numbers. While a perfect fifth is a difference of 7 semitones, this produces a difference of only 6.804 semitones. It would seem that its designers didn't have a perfect fifth in mind. Also, 540Hz is C#5 -45 cents and 800Hz is G5 +35 cents. So neither note seems intended to correspond to any natural key.
- max-m 4y ago
  One of the diagrams shows the frequencies as 1.85ms and 1.25ms, 540.5 and 800 Hz respectively.
- smoyer 4y ago
  In the original circuit,the same RC network is used for both the attack and decay so that circuit will indeed produce a 1:1 mark:space ratio.
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    Curious about the term "1:1 mark:space ratio" since it was also in the article. I would have used the term "50% duty cycle".
    - smoyer 4y ago
      I purposely repeated the OP's wording but since we're talking about an astable multivibrator,frequency and duty cycle (in percent) makes sense. I did a lot of circuit design for communications systems and I associate the words mark and space with ones and zeroes in a frame/word.
      - JKCalhoun 4y ago
        I wondered if it was an English (not American) phrasing.
        greenyoda 4y ago
        More on the origins of the terminology here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_and_space https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_and_space
- dahart 4y ago
  > While a perfect fifth is a difference of 7 semitones, this produces a difference of only 6.804 semitones. It would seem that its designers didn't have a perfect fifth in mind. Remember that 7 semitones is not a perfect fifth. (Note this depends on your definition of perfect fifth, some people allow for being close, since equal temperament is so common.) While a perfect fifth is a 3:2 ratio of frequency, seven semitones isn’t exactly 1.5, it’s more like 1.498. 800/540 is ~ 1.48, so I definitely agree the designers weren’t going for a fifth, very likely they wanted some beat interference to give it a nice metallic warble.

tiahura 4y ago

I think yours may be the first HN post linking The 2 Live Crew. And, indeed, Mr. Mixx is way way under appreciated.

tlb 4y ago

The schematic in the article shows trimpots controlling the 2 frequencies, so it was probably adjustable with a screwdriver.

chriscjcj 4y ago
You are right! 4:52 https://youtu.be/rPOqYHMpvqY?t=292 https://youtu.be/rPOqYHMpvqY?t=292

TheOtherHobbes 4y ago

Some of the 808's instruments/parts have trimmers, as mentioned below. But generally for analog, component tolerances are either 1, 5, or 10%. 1% is pretty audible on oscillators, and 10% is pretty audible on filters. So each instance of an untrimmed analog synth and drum machine will sound slightly different, even if they're coming off the same production line and using the same circuitry. Component values also drift over time, so a contemporary 808 is not going to sound the same as it did when it was shipped in the 80s. Basically analog's inaccuracies add character, detail, and interesting distortion. You can emulate them digitally, but emulating all of them accurately and convincingly is really quite hard.

JKCalhoun 4y ago
I understand temperature affects the frequency of some oscillators as well. Is that a possible explanation as well? (I assume for crystal-based oscillators that would not be the case, but for musical/analog oscillators I assume these are not crystal derived).
- stephlow 4y ago
  This is correct. I have a couple of analog oscillators in my modular rack and the case needs to heat up for a couple of minutes before they generate a stable pitch. Not familiar with the exact reasons to be honest.
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    Basically all components have temperature dependent values
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    Higher quality equipment that needs a stable timebase will use ovenized oscillators with an integrated heater and a control loop to maintain a stable temperature. These are all inaccurate before they are up to operating temperature.
  - dylan604 4y ago

Bjartr 4y ago

The 808 in particular has an additional twist. The transistors used in it were out-of-spec rejected parts as a cost savings measure. So recreations and repairs can have difficulty recapturing the signature sound if they go only by part number. https://secretlifeofsynthesizers.com/the-strange-heart-of-the-roland-tr-808/ https://secretlifeofsynthesizers.com/the-strange-heart-of-th...