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I had a chat with a DLR "passenger service agent" a few weeks ago (DLR, or Docklands Light Railway being a "fully automated" light rail system in London). He ha

I had a chat with a DLR "passenger service agent" a few weeks ago (DLR, or Docklands Light Railway being a "fully automated" light rail system in London). He had opened the driving console at the front and was sitting there, I asked if there was a fault or something that meant they were operating in reversion mode (PSAs can drive the trains in certain failure cases). He said DLR introduced a policy many years ago where after 8pm or so (maybe just on Fri/Sat night?) the PSA needs to sit at the open drivers console ready to smack the emergency stop in case of people on the tracks. Before then it's optional, but some PSAs like to do it anyway in case "their train" hits someone. Not really much point to this but I thought it was interesting how the PSAs are effectively put in a position of responsibility for the actions of the autonomous vehicle but presumably are not compensated the same as an active(?) driver would be. Maybe a lot of the desire to move to "autonomous" (or really just more automated if it requires a safety driver) is a workaround for union wages by reclassifying drivers as new made up things. Presumably like a DLR these buses will always require a human to take responsibility in case of crash, accident, fire etc - but this way for arbitrary reasons you can pay less!

avianlyric 4y ago
> Not really much point to this but I thought it was interesting how the PSAs are effectively put in a position of responsibility for the actions of the autonomous vehicle but presumably are not compensated the same as an active(?) driver would be. This is an interesting question. Most drivers on the underground aren’t active drivers at. I think every deep level tube line, except the Bakerloo, is autonomous, and the trains can’t be driven manually in normal operations because a human driver can’t react fast enough to continuous adjustments that are sent to train. Adjustments that are needed to safely operate the tube system at the frequency and close follow distance or achieves during peak. Instead the only things a tube driver does is check the doors before closing them, instructing the train to depart, and hitting the emergency stop if something goes wrong. They probably do get paid more than PSA, but I know they get extra compensation due to amount of time they work underground. I do want what level of liability a PSA is exposed to in that position. Presumably they would be in trouble if they were obviously not paying attention during the evening hours. But assuming they’re playing in their phone, I suspect they have little to no liability at all in the event of an incident. But I suspect that the emotional toll if “their” train hit someone would be high, regardless of their responsibilities. > Maybe a lot of the desire to move to "autonomous" (or really just more automated if it requires a safety driver) is a workaround for union wages by reclassifying drivers as new made up things. TfL actually have no desire to automate existing lines. The costs involved are astronomical, the saving minimal, and service improvements almost non-existent. For TfL there number one priority is improving capacity, and the biggest blocker to capacity on the underground isn’t drivers, it’s trains, signalling systems, and above all dwell time in stations. The signalling systems place a hard cap on maximum trains per hour, and the existing systems haven’t performed as well as hoped (it should be mentioned that these systems were cutting edge when installed, TfL tech tends to be on the absolute bleeding edge of metro technology, but the problem is fundamentally harder to solve than original expected), and dwell time (the time spent in stations getting people on and off the trains) his hard to reduce much further, without re-engineering trains and stations to increase the number of doors and platform crowding. Central government has been pushing the automation angle because it’s a “simple” solution to TfL finance problems. But as usual the problem is vastly more complex than that, and the “simple” solution is only good because it feel intuitively correct to public that doesn’t understand the actual problems TfL faces. London reconnections has a number of fantastic articles covering all this: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/driverless-trains-piccadilly/ https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/driverless-trains-p... https://www.londonreconnections.com/2020/tfl-the-impossible-finances-of-fighting-a-pandemic/ https://www.londonreconnections.com/2020/tfl-the-impossible-...
- blutack 4y ago
  Excellent points and London Reconnections is great! I suppose the crux of my ramble was in the fact I had to invent the term "active" driver (there may be a more appropriate way to describe how low level in the feedback loop of vehicle control a human operator is, but I don't know it). How we draw a line between who is a "driver" and why does the DLR (which is arguably pretty close to an ATO tube in terms of automation level) have PSAs whilst the tubes have drivers? If it isn't cost related is it a public perception thing (ooh this fancy train must be automatic it doesn't have a driver). Although as a passenger, being able to sit in the front seat of a DLR is very fun! If the safety monitor human (PSA/safety driver/whatever) has to be trained and licensed to operate the vehicle in manual mode, why is that any different to a driver of a traditional mainline train? Should a traditional train driver get a higher wage because they spend more time in a lower level feedback loop?
  - twic 4y ago
    FWIW, TfL doesn't call them drivers anyway, the title is "train operator". I believe this is because their duties combine those that would traditionally belong to both a driver and a guard. Although the regime of working without guards is called "driver only operation", so what's going on there. The crew on the DLR were originally called "train captains", which i think is an excellent name, and should be brought back.
- gsnedders 4y ago
  > I think every deep level tube line, except the Bakerloo, is autonomous, and the trains can’t be driven manually in normal operations because a human driver can’t react fast enough to continuous adjustments that are sent to train. Piccadilly and Waterloo & City are also manually driven. AIUI, the SelTrac system on the Northern and Jubilee lines _can_ often be beaten performance-wise, but for reasons of service consistency and predictability this isn't allowed (by policy) on-peak.
antihero 4y ago
A DLR guy let me press the horn when I was on a date once. Incredible night. He also let my date press the horn.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  Wink wink say no more say no more!
  - netsharc 4y ago
    Was your date a goer?! Ey, was she?!
Siira 4y ago
Driving is much more difficult than maybe pressing a button once in a year. Of course it’d pay less. Any lucid person can do it with little training.
- noobermin 4y ago
  There's no harm in unionizing bus attendants as well.

avianlyric 4y ago

> Not really much point to this but I thought it was interesting how the PSAs are effectively put in a position of responsibility for the actions of the autonomous vehicle but presumably are not compensated the same as an active(?) driver would be. This is an interesting question. Most drivers on the underground aren’t active drivers at. I think every deep level tube line, except the Bakerloo, is autonomous, and the trains can’t be driven manually in normal operations because a human driver can’t react fast enough to continuous adjustments that are sent to train. Adjustments that are needed to safely operate the tube system at the frequency and close follow distance or achieves during peak. Instead the only things a tube driver does is check the doors before closing them, instructing the train to depart, and hitting the emergency stop if something goes wrong. They probably do get paid more than PSA, but I know they get extra compensation due to amount of time they work underground. I do want what level of liability a PSA is exposed to in that position. Presumably they would be in trouble if they were obviously not paying attention during the evening hours. But assuming they’re playing in their phone, I suspect they have little to no liability at all in the event of an incident. But I suspect that the emotional toll if “their” train hit someone would be high, regardless of their responsibilities. > Maybe a lot of the desire to move to "autonomous" (or really just more automated if it requires a safety driver) is a workaround for union wages by reclassifying drivers as new made up things. TfL actually have no desire to automate existing lines. The costs involved are astronomical, the saving minimal, and service improvements almost non-existent. For TfL there number one priority is improving capacity, and the biggest blocker to capacity on the underground isn’t drivers, it’s trains, signalling systems, and above all dwell time in stations. The signalling systems place a hard cap on maximum trains per hour, and the existing systems haven’t performed as well as hoped (it should be mentioned that these systems were cutting edge when installed, TfL tech tends to be on the absolute bleeding edge of metro technology, but the problem is fundamentally harder to solve than original expected), and dwell time (the time spent in stations getting people on and off the trains) his hard to reduce much further, without re-engineering trains and stations to increase the number of doors and platform crowding. Central government has been pushing the automation angle because it’s a “simple” solution to TfL finance problems. But as usual the problem is vastly more complex than that, and the “simple” solution is only good because it feel intuitively correct to public that doesn’t understand the actual problems TfL faces. London reconnections has a number of fantastic articles covering all this: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/driverless-trains-piccadilly/ https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/driverless-trains-p... https://www.londonreconnections.com/2020/tfl-the-impossible-finances-of-fighting-a-pandemic/ https://www.londonreconnections.com/2020/tfl-the-impossible-...

blutack 4y ago
Excellent points and London Reconnections is great! I suppose the crux of my ramble was in the fact I had to invent the term "active" driver (there may be a more appropriate way to describe how low level in the feedback loop of vehicle control a human operator is, but I don't know it). How we draw a line between who is a "driver" and why does the DLR (which is arguably pretty close to an ATO tube in terms of automation level) have PSAs whilst the tubes have drivers? If it isn't cost related is it a public perception thing (ooh this fancy train must be automatic it doesn't have a driver). Although as a passenger, being able to sit in the front seat of a DLR is very fun! If the safety monitor human (PSA/safety driver/whatever) has to be trained and licensed to operate the vehicle in manual mode, why is that any different to a driver of a traditional mainline train? Should a traditional train driver get a higher wage because they spend more time in a lower level feedback loop?
- twic 4y ago
  FWIW, TfL doesn't call them drivers anyway, the title is "train operator". I believe this is because their duties combine those that would traditionally belong to both a driver and a guard. Although the regime of working without guards is called "driver only operation", so what's going on there. The crew on the DLR were originally called "train captains", which i think is an excellent name, and should be brought back.
gsnedders 4y ago
> I think every deep level tube line, except the Bakerloo, is autonomous, and the trains can’t be driven manually in normal operations because a human driver can’t react fast enough to continuous adjustments that are sent to train. Piccadilly and Waterloo & City are also manually driven. AIUI, the SelTrac system on the Northern and Jubilee lines _can_ often be beaten performance-wise, but for reasons of service consistency and predictability this isn't allowed (by policy) on-peak.

antihero 4y ago

A DLR guy let me press the horn when I was on a date once. Incredible night. He also let my date press the horn.

fnordpiglet 4y ago
Wink wink say no more say no more!
- netsharc 4y ago
  Was your date a goer?! Ey, was she?!

Siira 4y ago

Driving is much more difficult than maybe pressing a button once in a year. Of course it’d pay less. Any lucid person can do it with little training.

noobermin 4y ago
There's no harm in unionizing bus attendants as well.