9 ms·

The hyped and distorted claims of psychedelic marketing

59 points by pmoriarty 5y ago

ArtWomb 5y ago
Unfortunate hype cycle. Ironic indeed given that opening the doors of perception is supposed to give one a cosmic perspective, a gaia hypothesis model of the world. And this is in every way self-serving. Best thing is just to show the trip live, like an ayahuasca diary reality show demonstrating marked behavioral progress over 6-9 months or so ;)
- blastro 5y ago
  great idea
- leetrout 5y ago
  I think some of this is covered by Vice's show "Hamilton's Pharmacopeia". Not as you described with lasting effects on someone but certainly showing the acute effects and exploring various drugs.
_fat_santa 5y ago
Not directly related to the article. But I'm just glad we as a society have come back around to psychedelic's. It was clear in the 1960's that these drugs have massive potential to help treat mental illness, but we all know what Nixon did. I was watching a documentary about it the other day and it just made me sad, imagine where we would be today with mental health treatment had Nixon not made these drugs illegal. It seems that we as a society are starting to overcome the sins of the past. The problems mentioned in this article are real problems, but I almost look at it as a "good problem". If we're at the point with Psychedelics where our biggest issue is how the capitalists market it, I think we're doing alright.
- carapace 5y ago
  I knew a guy who fell in with some folks selling drugs & self-improvement scams back in the 90's in the Bay Area. You get some charismatic drug dealers, throw in whatever pseudo-profound quasi-religious beliefs are popular at the moment, and include a few techniques that have some kind of effect (like hyperventilation) and presto! You can charge people $$$ for your "classes" and then sell them MDMA at your house party later on. My friend spun out of control, started abusing nitrous oxide, lost his job, his girlfriend (who was in the same group of druggies), and his mind. He wound up wandering the streets of Berkeley wrapped in a blanket for a few years. His "spiritual" druggie friends abandoned him. So one the one hand, it is good that we are not criminalizing drugs themselves, but on the other, it really is a big challenge to integrate these powerful chemicals into our lives, our communities, and our ways of healing each other.
  - jotm 5y ago
    Yeah, I've started buying some drugs and had to deal with actual "junkies"... and it's been rather eye opening. I can see why they just blanket ban stuff. It seems many, if not most, people, just can't control themselves. Ironic, since I've got major self-control issues myself. But seeing someone use stimulants for relaxation, take a week's worth of it in 3 hours, then beg for more, that's insane. And a few kept trying to give me advice on how to "properly" use them. It couldn't fit in their heads that I am not in it for the high (which is shit imo). I guess it affects "normal" people differently. It is hard for those who can benefit from all the great medicine out there. I wish I could get a licence to use anything at my own responsibility, I don't use official healthcare anyway (I'm glad I can get treated if I break an arm or get into a car accident, but beyond that... useless). Why am I risking prison time for trying to fix myself and make my life better?
- goldenkey 5y ago
  They can just as easily cause mental illness. Marijuana can cause psychosis [1] but the cannabis lobby pretty much won and there's nothing on the packaging indicating this risk. Cannabis is involved in approximately 50% of psychosis, schizophrenia, and schizophreniform psychosis cases. Thats significant, wouldn't you say? In the same vein, DMT raped my brain and I felt like a fucking husk for two years after breaking through. These things are oversold. We should legalize them, but lets not kid ourselves about how potent and powerful these substances are.
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    “ Cannabis is involved in approximately 50% of psychosis, schizophrenia, and schizophreniform psychosis cases. Thats significant, wouldn't you say?” Maybe, maybe not. Nicotine was (is?) a very common self-medication for schizophrenia. So much so that it became a trope in movies, etc (e.g. “Clean, Shaven”). If a majority of people with schizophrenia smoked cigarettes, would we argue that nicotine is implicated in the development of that condition? My instinct is certainly that you’re right, but the direction of causality could simply be backwards too.
    - goldenkey 5y ago
      Thank you for highlighting the issue of correlation vs causality vs backwards causality. Nicotine is an antipsychotic, so psychosis generally leads to nicotine use as it's much more user-friendly than prescription antipsychotics. About the movie tropes, nicotine is an acetylcholinergic agent similar to caffeine. These agents act as nootropic stimulants hence the movie tropes. Both natural and synthetic insecticides have been known to poison people due to their potent acetylcholinergic activity. [1] THC is a different beast. It's well accepted that THC is psychedelic enough to bring out latent schizophrenia. What most folks don't know about is the temporary psychosis it can cause. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organophosphate_poisoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organophosphate_poisoning
  - curun1r 5y ago
    > Cannabis is involved in approximately 50% of psychosis, schizophrenia, and schizophreniform psychosis cases. Thats significant, wouldn't you say? Absolutely not. Alcohol is involved in 60% of the snake bites in the US. It’s easy to see the causal link. But that isn’t a reason to avoid alcohol or that alcohol puts you at a significant risk of being bitten by a snake. And that’s because alcohol consumption is common and snake bites are rare. Similarly, cannabis consumption is common and the conditions you list are rare. Even if there is a causal link there, and that’s a big if, that’s not a reason to avoid cannabis. There’s no reason to assume or even worry about being in the sub-1% group.
panqueque 5y ago
“We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled the 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.” - Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
- goldenkey 5y ago
  What most people fail to realize is that nature isn't humanoid in any capacity. I've lived long enough and seen enough synchronicities to know that reality is far more entangled than a cause and effect standpoint would have you believe. But nature being quite tightly coupled instead of locally isolated, doesn't mean nature has a humanoid intent. It just means that everything is connected. If the universe is a spider web, it doesn't do us any favors to assume we are being taken care of by some benevolent spider. This video is the world we live in. It's difficult to watch a komodo dragon eat a pregnant deer. But I challenge you to watch this, because this is what reality actually is: https://youtu.be/oHJuzE0k1V8 https://youtu.be/oHJuzE0k1V8 Reality is intimately connected through time and space. Reality is beautiful, dark, ruthless, dreary but it is not kind. Living as if nature is kind does not end well.
  - mjthrowaway1 5y ago
    And yet we have kindness in nature as well.
  - CPLX 5y ago
    Indeed. The scariest concept in the world isn’t someone that hates you and wants you dead. It’s something that views you as protein.
throw93232 5y ago
There is easy way to "disprove" it in any argument: If drugs solve depression and improve mental state, suggest goverment should finance and distribute drugs to homeless people.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  Even the most cursory examination of the topic would reveal to you that psychedelic drugs are (allegedly) beneficial when taken in a controlled manner, in safe environments - not exactly in line with the homelessness experience. Your statement is even less accurate, somehow, than saying "well if chemotherapy really works then why don't we just hand out random chemotherapy drugs to homeless people." I won't bother quoting any studies, because they wildly contradict one another, but the conventional wisdom is that some drugs can be beneficial in some circumstances. And often the benefit is harm reduction, ie managing pain with cannabis rather than opioids.
  - sidewndr46 5y ago
    This is nothing more than a "Rules for thee and not for me" attitude towards the poor. Homeless and doing drugs? OK, you are an addict, you have to get help, you have to get cleaned up, you're ruining your life, etc. Nothing more than a parasite on society. Wealthy and able to have a "doctor" prescribe you drugs? OK it's fine. You aren't one of those dirty "addicts" because a guy with two letters in front of his name says it OK.
    - hey2022 5y ago
      Replace drugs with surgery in this train of thought and you will notice that it does in fact make sense. This is not a war on the poor, psychedelic medicine requires care when administered.
      - sidewndr46 5y ago
        The US government literally calls it the "War on Drugs". Given that it is notoriously difficult to maim, jail, or prosecute a chemical we can be assured it is actually a war on people. Having been through the system once myself, I can assure you that it is incredibly oppressive to poor people who cannot afford legal representation. I'm all for someone deciding they need drugs to function. It doesn't matter to me how you live your life. If you do it with a doctor, fine. If you want to figure it out on your own because you don't have access to medical care, that does not make that person a criminal. There are plenty of people self medicating with nicotine & alcohol every day, no one says it is necessary to lock them up. The only difference I see is it is a handy source of tax revenue and somehow "socially acceptable".
gkop 5y ago
This is why I decline to invest in psychedelic angel funds. Hopefully if the government steps back, shrooms will sell themselves (safely).
- the_only_law 5y ago
  I’m wondering if increased visibility into DXM is going to get it RX only’d. I read somewhere that the only reason it is OTC is because the best alternative was Codeine, not sure if it’s true.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
ipsin 5y ago
I'm worried that we're going to split into a two-tiered system where people with money can go to clinics for recreational or therapeutic treatments, and people who don't want to spend that money can go to jail. That's already the situation for ketamine clinics.
- goldenkey 5y ago
  Indeed. Special K is a great breakfast. Kelloggs never locked anyone up :-)
- monkeybutton 5y ago
  It's always been like that, from Dr. Roberts in New York to people flying to South America and paying for ayahuasca trips. Edit for reference: http://www.beatlesebooks.com/dr-robert http://www.beatlesebooks.com/dr-robert >Dr. Robert Freymann, whose discreet East 78th Street clinic was conveniently located for Jackie Kennedy and other wealthy Upper East Siders from Fifth Avenue and Park to stroll over for their vitamin B-12 shots, which also happened to contain a massive dose of amphetamine.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
eldenwrong 5y ago
Terrible article gasping at straws
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
photochemsyn 5y ago
The USA has a rather distorted health care and medicine system, in that it's viewed here as a profit center, not as a basic societal necessity. In contrast, police and judicial services are not really viewed as an investment opportunity (let's skip private prisons), just a basic necessity. Where this comes out in the 'psychedelic treatment' movement is that it's not going to be very profitable, and in fact - if it works as advertised - will mean a lot of people will end up spending much less on anti-depressants on one hand, and alcohol and opiates and cannabis on the other. This is because psychedelics - administered not as daily microdosing, but rather as infrequent full-dose experiences, ideally under somewhat controlled conditions - show promise in providing treatments for depression and addiction that don't require further daily interventions. The effects of a single dose can last for weeks to months. From the business end of the health care system, this is a fiscal disaster. Someone spending $50 a day on alcohol, or cannabis, or opiates, or antidepressants and therapy, now spends $50 every few months on a bag of psychedelic mushrooms, with a more postive long-term outcome r.e. depression and addiction. One conclusion is that a society that views health care as a profit opportunity, rather than a basic necessity, has some serious value problems that end up encouraging unhealthy behavior, i.e. pushing junk food in schools, encouraging obesity and depression and addiction, which then generate further profits for hospitals and pharmaceutical producers.
- cortesoft 5y ago
  I always feel like people who make this sort of argument around health care in the US (that the health industry doesn’t want cheap cures because it will reduce their profit from expensive treatments) are forgetting one of the major players in this… the insurance companies. Health insurance companies love cheap cures, because that means lower costs and more profit for them. They have every incentive to promote cheap cures, and are a huge industry that spends a ton of money on lobbying.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    The search for quick cures (both by insurance companies and time/money-limited patients) is one of the major reasons that relatively short-acting psychedelics like MDMA, psilocybin and ketamine are popular. The even faster acting psychedelics like DMT (NN-DMT) and 5-MeO-DMT are also likely to become popular for the same reason. Their use may eventually eclipse more traditional and slower acting psychedelics, because what could be more convenient than tripping for 15 minutes, being "cured" of your depression, and then going on with the rest of your day?
anm89 5y ago
What problem, are these companies solving again? Go buy a legal spore syringe and you can grow more mushrooms than you could eat in a decade for $100 with the uncle Ben tek or the poor boy tek or whatever. You don't need to pay big pharma 1000x price by weight for the same stuff
- the_only_law 5y ago
  > What problem, are these companies solving again? If I had to guess visibility. I may be wrong but at the very least it seems research is being done intro drugs that haven’t had the most or best research done. I one time gave my self a serotonin syndrome scare and was concerned by the lack of quality research and information on the serotonergic affects of many drugs.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  It takes more than a syringe to grow mushrooms. It takes equipment, time, effort, and knowledge -- things most people don't have and don't want. This is the same reason most cannabis users don't grow their own supply, though it's supposedly "easy". Also the same reason most people go to grocery stores instead of growing their own food, and go to liquor stores instead of brewing their own beer. Most people want to offload the growing to others, and prefer the ease and convenience of buying premade and prepackaged goods. The huge variety of preparations and (in an ideal world) quality of commercial products is unlikely to be equaled by amateurs who dabble in growing on the weekend either. Also, advertising and packaging is going to draw people to commercial products. They might not technically "need" these, and maybe with enough time and effort the average person might be able to grow their own, but most certainly don't want that. They want a quick and convenient, commercially made and packaged product.
  - anm89 5y ago
    A pan with a lid, some rice and some Mason jars, a plastic tote and one bag of substrate. Really not all that much. The fact that it can all be bought for 50-100 bucks says it all. And these simple teks require watching a few you tube video and maybe some trial and error. We are talking about minimal commitment in terms of time and money. I get why we need big pharma but mushrooms grow out of the ground ready to consume. We need big pharma for psychsdrlids as much as We need big pharma to grow bananas and zucchini
the_only_law 5y ago
I see it as at least partly an overcorrection of the past. I still can’t search something as benign as Kava without websites swearing to me it’s more dangerous than hard drugs and telling me I should to pay for their addiction treatment for a non addictive substance.
scrollbar 5y ago
We’re at the point in the cycle where dollars donated to Psymposia will get better ROI than dollars to MAPS. Psychedelics aren’t going away at this point. Powerful tools must be handled with care, lest they cause more harm than good. Psymposia patreon https://www.patreon.com/psymposia https://www.patreon.com/psymposia Donate https://www.psymposia.com/donate/ https://www.psymposia.com/donate/
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "We’re at the point in the cycle where dollars donated to Psymposia will get better ROI than dollars to MAPS." I don't know about that. - Not even a single psychedelic has been taken off Schedlue 1 (the most prohibited category) in the US. - Only MDMA therapy has reached Phase 3 trials and is ready for mainstream adoption. - Despite all the research done on psychedelics, our understanding of how and why they work, and of their potential is still in its infancy. - It's still difficult to do large double-blind, placebo controlled studies with psychedelics due to funding shortages. - Most people still don't know much about psychedelics and have never tried them. Psymposia does good work in exposing scandals, but doesn't do anything to address any of the above issues. MAPS still has a long, long way to go and is every bit as deserving of funding as it ever was.
  - scrollbar 5y ago
    At this point it seems like Psymposia’s MO is that MAPS is the scandal, and is generating bad science. Not sure I 100% agree but I think it’s a point worth considering.
yarg 5y ago
> Microdosing is the CBD of psychedelics. Pfft. There is significant evident of CBD's efficacy as a powerful anti-convulsant, the fact that it does not get you high makes it an attractive option for the treatment of childhood epilepsy. Perhaps it's a little premature to be so dismissive of those who are afraid of getting high. Now that said, I have personally found that the long term impact of one very large dose (12 grams dried) of mushrooms far exceeds that of several single doses; I've gone from having several suicidal thoughts a day, down to being a regularly depressed dude - a hell of an improvement. But I'm not going to dismiss the possibility that in less extreme circumstances, microdosing could be preferable to a night hanging out with spider demons at the end of time.

59 points by pmoriarty 5y ago

Unfortunate hype cycle. Ironic indeed given that opening the doors of perception is supposed to give one a cosmic perspective, a gaia hypothesis model of the world. And this is in every way self-serving. Best thing is just to show the trip live, like an ayahuasca diary reality show demonstrating marked behavioral progress over 6-9 months or so ;)

blastro 5y ago
great idea
leetrout 5y ago
I think some of this is covered by Vice's show "Hamilton's Pharmacopeia". Not as you described with lasting effects on someone but certainly showing the acute effects and exploring various drugs.

_fat_santa 5y ago

Not directly related to the article. But I'm just glad we as a society have come back around to psychedelic's. It was clear in the 1960's that these drugs have massive potential to help treat mental illness, but we all know what Nixon did. I was watching a documentary about it the other day and it just made me sad, imagine where we would be today with mental health treatment had Nixon not made these drugs illegal. It seems that we as a society are starting to overcome the sins of the past. The problems mentioned in this article are real problems, but I almost look at it as a "good problem". If we're at the point with Psychedelics where our biggest issue is how the capitalists market it, I think we're doing alright.

carapace 5y ago
I knew a guy who fell in with some folks selling drugs & self-improvement scams back in the 90's in the Bay Area. You get some charismatic drug dealers, throw in whatever pseudo-profound quasi-religious beliefs are popular at the moment, and include a few techniques that have some kind of effect (like hyperventilation) and presto! You can charge people $$$ for your "classes" and then sell them MDMA at your house party later on. My friend spun out of control, started abusing nitrous oxide, lost his job, his girlfriend (who was in the same group of druggies), and his mind. He wound up wandering the streets of Berkeley wrapped in a blanket for a few years. His "spiritual" druggie friends abandoned him. So one the one hand, it is good that we are not criminalizing drugs themselves, but on the other, it really is a big challenge to integrate these powerful chemicals into our lives, our communities, and our ways of healing each other.
- jotm 5y ago
  Yeah, I've started buying some drugs and had to deal with actual "junkies"... and it's been rather eye opening. I can see why they just blanket ban stuff. It seems many, if not most, people, just can't control themselves. Ironic, since I've got major self-control issues myself. But seeing someone use stimulants for relaxation, take a week's worth of it in 3 hours, then beg for more, that's insane. And a few kept trying to give me advice on how to "properly" use them. It couldn't fit in their heads that I am not in it for the high (which is shit imo). I guess it affects "normal" people differently. It is hard for those who can benefit from all the great medicine out there. I wish I could get a licence to use anything at my own responsibility, I don't use official healthcare anyway (I'm glad I can get treated if I break an arm or get into a car accident, but beyond that... useless). Why am I risking prison time for trying to fix myself and make my life better?
goldenkey 5y ago
They can just as easily cause mental illness. Marijuana can cause psychosis [1] but the cannabis lobby pretty much won and there's nothing on the packaging indicating this risk. Cannabis is involved in approximately 50% of psychosis, schizophrenia, and schizophreniform psychosis cases. Thats significant, wouldn't you say? In the same vein, DMT raped my brain and I felt like a fucking husk for two years after breaking through. These things are oversold. We should legalize them, but lets not kid ourselves about how potent and powerful these substances are.
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  “ Cannabis is involved in approximately 50% of psychosis, schizophrenia, and schizophreniform psychosis cases. Thats significant, wouldn't you say?” Maybe, maybe not. Nicotine was (is?) a very common self-medication for schizophrenia. So much so that it became a trope in movies, etc (e.g. “Clean, Shaven”). If a majority of people with schizophrenia smoked cigarettes, would we argue that nicotine is implicated in the development of that condition? My instinct is certainly that you’re right, but the direction of causality could simply be backwards too.
  - goldenkey 5y ago
    Thank you for highlighting the issue of correlation vs causality vs backwards causality. Nicotine is an antipsychotic, so psychosis generally leads to nicotine use as it's much more user-friendly than prescription antipsychotics. About the movie tropes, nicotine is an acetylcholinergic agent similar to caffeine. These agents act as nootropic stimulants hence the movie tropes. Both natural and synthetic insecticides have been known to poison people due to their potent acetylcholinergic activity. [1] THC is a different beast. It's well accepted that THC is psychedelic enough to bring out latent schizophrenia. What most folks don't know about is the temporary psychosis it can cause. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organophosphate_poisoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organophosphate_poisoning
- curun1r 5y ago
  > Cannabis is involved in approximately 50% of psychosis, schizophrenia, and schizophreniform psychosis cases. Thats significant, wouldn't you say? Absolutely not. Alcohol is involved in 60% of the snake bites in the US. It’s easy to see the causal link. But that isn’t a reason to avoid alcohol or that alcohol puts you at a significant risk of being bitten by a snake. And that’s because alcohol consumption is common and snake bites are rare. Similarly, cannabis consumption is common and the conditions you list are rare. Even if there is a causal link there, and that’s a big if, that’s not a reason to avoid cannabis. There’s no reason to assume or even worry about being in the sub-1% group.

panqueque 5y ago

“We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled the 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody... or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.” - Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

goldenkey 5y ago
What most people fail to realize is that nature isn't humanoid in any capacity. I've lived long enough and seen enough synchronicities to know that reality is far more entangled than a cause and effect standpoint would have you believe. But nature being quite tightly coupled instead of locally isolated, doesn't mean nature has a humanoid intent. It just means that everything is connected. If the universe is a spider web, it doesn't do us any favors to assume we are being taken care of by some benevolent spider. This video is the world we live in. It's difficult to watch a komodo dragon eat a pregnant deer. But I challenge you to watch this, because this is what reality actually is: https://youtu.be/oHJuzE0k1V8 https://youtu.be/oHJuzE0k1V8 Reality is intimately connected through time and space. Reality is beautiful, dark, ruthless, dreary but it is not kind. Living as if nature is kind does not end well.
- mjthrowaway1 5y ago
  And yet we have kindness in nature as well.
- CPLX 5y ago
  Indeed. The scariest concept in the world isn’t someone that hates you and wants you dead. It’s something that views you as protein.

throw93232 5y ago

There is easy way to "disprove" it in any argument: If drugs solve depression and improve mental state, suggest goverment should finance and distribute drugs to homeless people.

JohnBooty 5y ago
Even the most cursory examination of the topic would reveal to you that psychedelic drugs are (allegedly) beneficial when taken in a controlled manner, in safe environments - not exactly in line with the homelessness experience. Your statement is even less accurate, somehow, than saying "well if chemotherapy really works then why don't we just hand out random chemotherapy drugs to homeless people." I won't bother quoting any studies, because they wildly contradict one another, but the conventional wisdom is that some drugs can be beneficial in some circumstances. And often the benefit is harm reduction, ie managing pain with cannabis rather than opioids.
- sidewndr46 5y ago
  This is nothing more than a "Rules for thee and not for me" attitude towards the poor. Homeless and doing drugs? OK, you are an addict, you have to get help, you have to get cleaned up, you're ruining your life, etc. Nothing more than a parasite on society. Wealthy and able to have a "doctor" prescribe you drugs? OK it's fine. You aren't one of those dirty "addicts" because a guy with two letters in front of his name says it OK.
  - hey2022 5y ago
    Replace drugs with surgery in this train of thought and you will notice that it does in fact make sense. This is not a war on the poor, psychedelic medicine requires care when administered.
    - sidewndr46 5y ago
      The US government literally calls it the "War on Drugs". Given that it is notoriously difficult to maim, jail, or prosecute a chemical we can be assured it is actually a war on people. Having been through the system once myself, I can assure you that it is incredibly oppressive to poor people who cannot afford legal representation. I'm all for someone deciding they need drugs to function. It doesn't matter to me how you live your life. If you do it with a doctor, fine. If you want to figure it out on your own because you don't have access to medical care, that does not make that person a criminal. There are plenty of people self medicating with nicotine & alcohol every day, no one says it is necessary to lock them up. The only difference I see is it is a handy source of tax revenue and somehow "socially acceptable".

gkop 5y ago

This is why I decline to invest in psychedelic angel funds. Hopefully if the government steps back, shrooms will sell themselves (safely).

the_only_law 5y ago
I’m wondering if increased visibility into DXM is going to get it RX only’d. I read somewhere that the only reason it is OTC is because the best alternative was Codeine, not sure if it’s true.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

ipsin 5y ago

I'm worried that we're going to split into a two-tiered system where people with money can go to clinics for recreational or therapeutic treatments, and people who don't want to spend that money can go to jail. That's already the situation for ketamine clinics.

goldenkey 5y ago
Indeed. Special K is a great breakfast. Kelloggs never locked anyone up :-)
monkeybutton 5y ago
It's always been like that, from Dr. Roberts in New York to people flying to South America and paying for ayahuasca trips. Edit for reference: http://www.beatlesebooks.com/dr-robert http://www.beatlesebooks.com/dr-robert >Dr. Robert Freymann, whose discreet East 78th Street clinic was conveniently located for Jackie Kennedy and other wealthy Upper East Siders from Fifth Avenue and Park to stroll over for their vitamin B-12 shots, which also happened to contain a massive dose of amphetamine.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

eldenwrong 5y ago

Terrible article gasping at straws

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

photochemsyn 5y ago

The USA has a rather distorted health care and medicine system, in that it's viewed here as a profit center, not as a basic societal necessity. In contrast, police and judicial services are not really viewed as an investment opportunity (let's skip private prisons), just a basic necessity. Where this comes out in the 'psychedelic treatment' movement is that it's not going to be very profitable, and in fact - if it works as advertised - will mean a lot of people will end up spending much less on anti-depressants on one hand, and alcohol and opiates and cannabis on the other. This is because psychedelics - administered not as daily microdosing, but rather as infrequent full-dose experiences, ideally under somewhat controlled conditions - show promise in providing treatments for depression and addiction that don't require further daily interventions. The effects of a single dose can last for weeks to months. From the business end of the health care system, this is a fiscal disaster. Someone spending $50 a day on alcohol, or cannabis, or opiates, or antidepressants and therapy, now spends $50 every few months on a bag of psychedelic mushrooms, with a more postive long-term outcome r.e. depression and addiction. One conclusion is that a society that views health care as a profit opportunity, rather than a basic necessity, has some serious value problems that end up encouraging unhealthy behavior, i.e. pushing junk food in schools, encouraging obesity and depression and addiction, which then generate further profits for hospitals and pharmaceutical producers.

cortesoft 5y ago
I always feel like people who make this sort of argument around health care in the US (that the health industry doesn’t want cheap cures because it will reduce their profit from expensive treatments) are forgetting one of the major players in this… the insurance companies. Health insurance companies love cheap cures, because that means lower costs and more profit for them. They have every incentive to promote cheap cures, and are a huge industry that spends a ton of money on lobbying.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  The search for quick cures (both by insurance companies and time/money-limited patients) is one of the major reasons that relatively short-acting psychedelics like MDMA, psilocybin and ketamine are popular. The even faster acting psychedelics like DMT (NN-DMT) and 5-MeO-DMT are also likely to become popular for the same reason. Their use may eventually eclipse more traditional and slower acting psychedelics, because what could be more convenient than tripping for 15 minutes, being "cured" of your depression, and then going on with the rest of your day?

anm89 5y ago

What problem, are these companies solving again? Go buy a legal spore syringe and you can grow more mushrooms than you could eat in a decade for $100 with the uncle Ben tek or the poor boy tek or whatever. You don't need to pay big pharma 1000x price by weight for the same stuff

the_only_law 5y ago
> What problem, are these companies solving again? If I had to guess visibility. I may be wrong but at the very least it seems research is being done intro drugs that haven’t had the most or best research done. I one time gave my self a serotonin syndrome scare and was concerned by the lack of quality research and information on the serotonergic affects of many drugs.
pmoriarty 5y ago
It takes more than a syringe to grow mushrooms. It takes equipment, time, effort, and knowledge -- things most people don't have and don't want. This is the same reason most cannabis users don't grow their own supply, though it's supposedly "easy". Also the same reason most people go to grocery stores instead of growing their own food, and go to liquor stores instead of brewing their own beer. Most people want to offload the growing to others, and prefer the ease and convenience of buying premade and prepackaged goods. The huge variety of preparations and (in an ideal world) quality of commercial products is unlikely to be equaled by amateurs who dabble in growing on the weekend either. Also, advertising and packaging is going to draw people to commercial products. They might not technically "need" these, and maybe with enough time and effort the average person might be able to grow their own, but most certainly don't want that. They want a quick and convenient, commercially made and packaged product.
- anm89 5y ago
  A pan with a lid, some rice and some Mason jars, a plastic tote and one bag of substrate. Really not all that much. The fact that it can all be bought for 50-100 bucks says it all. And these simple teks require watching a few you tube video and maybe some trial and error. We are talking about minimal commitment in terms of time and money. I get why we need big pharma but mushrooms grow out of the ground ready to consume. We need big pharma for psychsdrlids as much as We need big pharma to grow bananas and zucchini

the_only_law 5y ago

I see it as at least partly an overcorrection of the past. I still can’t search something as benign as Kava without websites swearing to me it’s more dangerous than hard drugs and telling me I should to pay for their addiction treatment for a non addictive substance.

scrollbar 5y ago

We’re at the point in the cycle where dollars donated to Psymposia will get better ROI than dollars to MAPS. Psychedelics aren’t going away at this point. Powerful tools must be handled with care, lest they cause more harm than good. Psymposia patreon https://www.patreon.com/psymposia https://www.patreon.com/psymposia Donate https://www.psymposia.com/donate/ https://www.psymposia.com/donate/

pmoriarty 5y ago
"We’re at the point in the cycle where dollars donated to Psymposia will get better ROI than dollars to MAPS." I don't know about that. - Not even a single psychedelic has been taken off Schedlue 1 (the most prohibited category) in the US. - Only MDMA therapy has reached Phase 3 trials and is ready for mainstream adoption. - Despite all the research done on psychedelics, our understanding of how and why they work, and of their potential is still in its infancy. - It's still difficult to do large double-blind, placebo controlled studies with psychedelics due to funding shortages. - Most people still don't know much about psychedelics and have never tried them. Psymposia does good work in exposing scandals, but doesn't do anything to address any of the above issues. MAPS still has a long, long way to go and is every bit as deserving of funding as it ever was.
- scrollbar 5y ago
  At this point it seems like Psymposia’s MO is that MAPS is the scandal, and is generating bad science. Not sure I 100% agree but I think it’s a point worth considering.

yarg 5y ago

> Microdosing is the CBD of psychedelics. Pfft. There is significant evident of CBD's efficacy as a powerful anti-convulsant, the fact that it does not get you high makes it an attractive option for the treatment of childhood epilepsy. Perhaps it's a little premature to be so dismissive of those who are afraid of getting high. Now that said, I have personally found that the long term impact of one very large dose (12 grams dried) of mushrooms far exceeds that of several single doses; I've gone from having several suicidal thoughts a day, down to being a regularly depressed dude - a hell of an improvement. But I'm not going to dismiss the possibility that in less extreme circumstances, microdosing could be preferable to a night hanging out with spider demons at the end of time.