4 ms·

What are the evidently bad parts of EU that you come to realize once out? I'm also puzzled by your claim that support for re-join has dropped because as it hap

by mrtksn 5y ago

What are the evidently bad parts of EU that you come to realize once out? I'm also puzzled by your claim that support for re-join has dropped because as it happens, it actually didn't change much and the latest polls suggest that re-join has the lead[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_Kingdom_rejoining_the_European_Union_(2020–present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_...

thinkingemote 5y ago
Not who you are replying to, one little heard "worsening EU" factor I have read is the rise of far right political parties in most EU states. The implication is that the EU might be controlled by the very problematic far right, and so the UK outside of it would be insulated from any issues. I don't think we've seen any EU wide political effects because of the rise of the far right in Europe. But I find the idea an interesting one that's being aired by some in the UK. Yes, Europe is seeing the hard right and populism growing but no it's not a problem yet at the continent level as far as I know.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  Isn't UK controlled by the very problematic far-right since Brexit(every major pre-2016 far right figure had or has an important post in the government)? Wasn't Farage(far righter) who caused issues in the EU up until he lost his position. I mean, I lost track of political scandals in the UK. It's a strange argument that I don't see how it could have played out had the UK remained.
  - blibble 5y ago
    > Isn't UK controlled by the very problematic far-right since Brexit no, the Conservatives are centre right, and very much left of the democrats > Wasn't Farage(far righter) who caused issues in the EU up until he lost his position no, his party never managed anything other than annoying the people running the parliament
    - MattPalmer1086 5y ago
      The conservatives have moved much further to the right, by absorbing UKIP voters to win on Brexit. So while Farage never won political power himself he certainly moved the political window rightwards. I would not call the Conservatives centrist in any sense. They may appear further to the left on some issues than the US, but only because they would not win if they were honest about their intentions (e.g. privatise the NHS).
      - blibble 5y ago
        and yet somehow it was Labour that did the most to privatise the NHS with the dreadful PFI contracts
        MattPalmer1086 5y ago
        Yeah, PFI was dreadful. I don't think they wanted wholesale privatisation, but the Blair years were certainly more right than Labour generally is.
  - skippyboxedhero 5y ago
    "very problematic far-right"...lol. France had Le Pen in the final round, the EU has far-right ministers in govt across the union because of PR...the Tories are centre-right (if that, Tory govts after Blair have all been very centrist). That is why Brits are puzzled by the EU, it is fuelling the far-right. I understand why people from the EU are confused, because the far-right are in parliament in almost every nation and in govt in a few in the EU. The UK doesn't have a far right, they don't exist politically, our voting system means it is impossible. The only far-right political party in the UK was the BNP, they don't exist anymore, never elected to Parliament, and their height was electing a few local councillors (and MEPs...ofc, even our far-right figures flocked to the EU). Farage isn't far right, he is just called that because he opposed the EU. But UKIP has never had any MPs elected to Parliament, it has had 2 MPs (iirc) defect from the Tories, Farage has never been an MP, their only role has been in the EU Parliament. There is no connection between the far-right and Brexit either. If you look at the Cabinet, you will see non-white MPs who supported Brexit. It is sad that everything has to be overlaid with that context (again, one reason I am glad to be shot of the EU) but it makes no sense. I suppose Europe is content to keep fighting the battles of the early 20th century again, but people in the UK are happy to move forward (this is also why Brits are opposed to PR voting, sounds good in theory but then you look to Europe and see the nutters they have in govt...FPTP has neutralised that debate totally).
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      Far-right isn't something that you fill paperwork and now you become far-right. IMHO sending asylum seekers to Rwanda for processing is something far-right would do. Creating hostile environment to achieve something is a thing that far-right would do. Controlling access to porn and arresting people for tweets is something far-right would do. Government officials acting as they are not laws for them is something that far right would do. Anyway, let's agree to disagree.
      - thinkingemote 5y ago
        In the context of Europe, one needs to compare the Tory party to the self declared far right nationalist parties in Europe. Many of which hold actual positions in their governments. I'm sure you would agree it's all a matter of degree rather than a yes/no situation. The point is that in Europe there are further, more extreme far right parties. And they are increasing. However I don't think they are causing an actual problem at the EU level. There's also a counter argument that the UK should have remained in Europe to counter the rising European far right, to help moderate things at a continental level! Ironic but a little heard argument as the main campaign was that the EU didn't need the UK, rather it was the other way around (the UK needed the EU).
skippyboxedhero 5y ago
Non-sensical regulations, increasing extreme politics, continued economic problems (essentially none of the structural issues in 2012 are solved, the "solution" was: borrow more...it is worrying), lack of leadership in foreign policy...or lack of anything but self-serving nonsense (as with Iran, the EU leading the way on sanction-busting), increasing corporatism, heavy centralisation. Fundamentally, the UK is just going in a different direction. Staying in the EU isn't helpful for the EU or the UK. But the EU approach of: you should be inside the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent being pissed on by us...is idiotic (if the history of the 20th century didn't tell you how that ended for Europe). Those aren't recent. The data varies heavily by question asked, and tends not to consider the trend. People don't want a second referendum (they elected a govt on a significant majority on that basis, for some reason people tend to just ignore the fact that the public did have a second vote after 2016...the result was even more emphatic).
- mrtksn 5y ago
  Do you have something specific. For example, for things getting bad I can give you the example of roaming charges being re-introduced. Corporatism, centralisation kind of things are big words that need explanation. It's like saying that it's red, blue and white Brexit. How poetic but what does it mean? For example, since UK leaving EU, did the UK abolish corporations and become agrarian civilisation where everyone works for themselves? If so, what exactly prevented UK doing it before leaving the EU? Did UK abolish the central government and gave power back to the local governments? If so, what exactly was stoping UK doing it when in EU? > Those aren't recent Okay, please provide the data you are basing your opinions on.
  - skippyboxedhero 5y ago
    Roaming charges haven't been re-introduced by providers. They don't need explanation...that is why the terms exist. The EU is run by large corporations. The EU is heavily centralised. Ah, so you don't understand what corporatism means...so then use some ludicrous analogy, but you don't understand that just highlights your own ignorance. And yes, the UK is giving power back to local govts. Nothing was stopping that before, but the point of being in the EU is that you are in the EU, which centralises political authority away from voters...again, I suspect that sounded better in your head. Tell me what political party has a policy of re-joining the EU, and how much vote share they are getting at the moment? The polling on the exact question is exactly the same as it was in 2016 (that will probably fall back to where it was last year through the rest of this year) but if you look at polling on whether people want a second referendum or whether they view rejoining the EU as likely, it is clear (if the result of the "second vote" in 2019 wasn't).

by mrtksn 5y ago

thinkingemote 5y ago

Not who you are replying to, one little heard "worsening EU" factor I have read is the rise of far right political parties in most EU states. The implication is that the EU might be controlled by the very problematic far right, and so the UK outside of it would be insulated from any issues. I don't think we've seen any EU wide political effects because of the rise of the far right in Europe. But I find the idea an interesting one that's being aired by some in the UK. Yes, Europe is seeing the hard right and populism growing but no it's not a problem yet at the continent level as far as I know.

mrtksn 5y ago
Isn't UK controlled by the very problematic far-right since Brexit(every major pre-2016 far right figure had or has an important post in the government)? Wasn't Farage(far righter) who caused issues in the EU up until he lost his position. I mean, I lost track of political scandals in the UK. It's a strange argument that I don't see how it could have played out had the UK remained.
- blibble 5y ago
  > Isn't UK controlled by the very problematic far-right since Brexit no, the Conservatives are centre right, and very much left of the democrats > Wasn't Farage(far righter) who caused issues in the EU up until he lost his position no, his party never managed anything other than annoying the people running the parliament
  - MattPalmer1086 5y ago
    The conservatives have moved much further to the right, by absorbing UKIP voters to win on Brexit. So while Farage never won political power himself he certainly moved the political window rightwards. I would not call the Conservatives centrist in any sense. They may appear further to the left on some issues than the US, but only because they would not win if they were honest about their intentions (e.g. privatise the NHS).
    - blibble 5y ago
      and yet somehow it was Labour that did the most to privatise the NHS with the dreadful PFI contracts
      - MattPalmer1086 5y ago
        Yeah, PFI was dreadful. I don't think they wanted wholesale privatisation, but the Blair years were certainly more right than Labour generally is.
- skippyboxedhero 5y ago
  "very problematic far-right"...lol. France had Le Pen in the final round, the EU has far-right ministers in govt across the union because of PR...the Tories are centre-right (if that, Tory govts after Blair have all been very centrist). That is why Brits are puzzled by the EU, it is fuelling the far-right. I understand why people from the EU are confused, because the far-right are in parliament in almost every nation and in govt in a few in the EU. The UK doesn't have a far right, they don't exist politically, our voting system means it is impossible. The only far-right political party in the UK was the BNP, they don't exist anymore, never elected to Parliament, and their height was electing a few local councillors (and MEPs...ofc, even our far-right figures flocked to the EU). Farage isn't far right, he is just called that because he opposed the EU. But UKIP has never had any MPs elected to Parliament, it has had 2 MPs (iirc) defect from the Tories, Farage has never been an MP, their only role has been in the EU Parliament. There is no connection between the far-right and Brexit either. If you look at the Cabinet, you will see non-white MPs who supported Brexit. It is sad that everything has to be overlaid with that context (again, one reason I am glad to be shot of the EU) but it makes no sense. I suppose Europe is content to keep fighting the battles of the early 20th century again, but people in the UK are happy to move forward (this is also why Brits are opposed to PR voting, sounds good in theory but then you look to Europe and see the nutters they have in govt...FPTP has neutralised that debate totally).
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    Far-right isn't something that you fill paperwork and now you become far-right. IMHO sending asylum seekers to Rwanda for processing is something far-right would do. Creating hostile environment to achieve something is a thing that far-right would do. Controlling access to porn and arresting people for tweets is something far-right would do. Government officials acting as they are not laws for them is something that far right would do. Anyway, let's agree to disagree.
    - thinkingemote 5y ago
      In the context of Europe, one needs to compare the Tory party to the self declared far right nationalist parties in Europe. Many of which hold actual positions in their governments. I'm sure you would agree it's all a matter of degree rather than a yes/no situation. The point is that in Europe there are further, more extreme far right parties. And they are increasing. However I don't think they are causing an actual problem at the EU level. There's also a counter argument that the UK should have remained in Europe to counter the rising European far right, to help moderate things at a continental level! Ironic but a little heard argument as the main campaign was that the EU didn't need the UK, rather it was the other way around (the UK needed the EU).

skippyboxedhero 5y ago

Non-sensical regulations, increasing extreme politics, continued economic problems (essentially none of the structural issues in 2012 are solved, the "solution" was: borrow more...it is worrying), lack of leadership in foreign policy...or lack of anything but self-serving nonsense (as with Iran, the EU leading the way on sanction-busting), increasing corporatism, heavy centralisation. Fundamentally, the UK is just going in a different direction. Staying in the EU isn't helpful for the EU or the UK. But the EU approach of: you should be inside the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent being pissed on by us...is idiotic (if the history of the 20th century didn't tell you how that ended for Europe). Those aren't recent. The data varies heavily by question asked, and tends not to consider the trend. People don't want a second referendum (they elected a govt on a significant majority on that basis, for some reason people tend to just ignore the fact that the public did have a second vote after 2016...the result was even more emphatic).

mrtksn 5y ago
Do you have something specific. For example, for things getting bad I can give you the example of roaming charges being re-introduced. Corporatism, centralisation kind of things are big words that need explanation. It's like saying that it's red, blue and white Brexit. How poetic but what does it mean? For example, since UK leaving EU, did the UK abolish corporations and become agrarian civilisation where everyone works for themselves? If so, what exactly prevented UK doing it before leaving the EU? Did UK abolish the central government and gave power back to the local governments? If so, what exactly was stoping UK doing it when in EU? > Those aren't recent Okay, please provide the data you are basing your opinions on.
- skippyboxedhero 5y ago
  Roaming charges haven't been re-introduced by providers. They don't need explanation...that is why the terms exist. The EU is run by large corporations. The EU is heavily centralised. Ah, so you don't understand what corporatism means...so then use some ludicrous analogy, but you don't understand that just highlights your own ignorance. And yes, the UK is giving power back to local govts. Nothing was stopping that before, but the point of being in the EU is that you are in the EU, which centralises political authority away from voters...again, I suspect that sounded better in your head. Tell me what political party has a policy of re-joining the EU, and how much vote share they are getting at the moment? The polling on the exact question is exactly the same as it was in 2016 (that will probably fall back to where it was last year through the rest of this year) but if you look at polling on whether people want a second referendum or whether they view rejoining the EU as likely, it is clear (if the result of the "second vote" in 2019 wasn't).