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Switzerland and Norway are not much closer to or farther from the EU than the UK. What works for them can also work for the UK. The UK also plays by most of the

Switzerland and Norway are not much closer to or farther from the EU than the UK. What works for them can also work for the UK. The UK also plays by most of the EU rules (more than actual members such as Poland or Hungary if you ask me). Switzerland is very interested in keeping relations with the UK at a high level and is actively negotiating since Brexit. The EU is not Europe and is definitely lacking in some aspects that might countries want to reconsider a membership.

not2b 4y ago
Norway is in the European Economic Area, which allows for free movement of people, which is exactly the part that Brexiters hated the most. They aren't going to give that up. Switzerland is in the European Free Trade Association and part of the Schengen area, again allowing for free movement of people. Sure, they might sign deals to maintain trade with the UK, but won't accept any deal that would harm their ability to trade with the (much bigger and wealthier) EU.
- Longhanks 4y ago
  Are you implying the EU would try to forbid Switzerland and Britain from forming deals? Because the EU has literally zero say in that. This mindset of the EU trying to establish an implicit rule over Europe is the exact reason why it is so poorly regarded in Switzerland.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    I think your question is “wet pavements cause rain” level of misinterpretation of what @not2b wrote. (I have no idea if what @not2b wrote is correct, but the causality in their comment is the exact opposite direction of what you’re asking is implied).
- jollybean 4y ago
  'Free Movement' can mean many things. It's an ideological to pro-EU political types ... but from a populist sense, European citizens themselves have something a bit closer to the UK view. 'Ideological Free Movement' means basically what they have in the US. Popularly, if it were put to a vote, European citizens would chose something more along the lines of 'unlimited, no visa travel and work' - which is not quite the same thing. Finally - be careful with concerns about 'It's what UK hated the most' - it's not quite true. The UK is the most open and tolerant country in the EU, it's also the one with considerably more migrants than most [1] UK attitudes towards migration are a function of the large scale of migrants that chose, the UK, much like almost all of the nations on the periphery of Europe i.e. Greece/Italy etc have 'very negative' views of migrants, at least partly due to the fact that for whatever reason they're just not able to integrate them. (Which is obviously a complicated thing). [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/03/14/around-the-world-more-say-immigrants-are-a-strength-than-a-burden/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/03/14/around-the-wor...
  - dijit 4y ago
    > The UK is the most open and tolerant country in the EU, it's also the one with considerably more migrants than most Appreciate the citation provided but this is beyond the pale, I can't imagine we're even talking about the same Britain where I come from. Sweden and Germany bears more immigrants per capita than the UK does, Britain was complaining (extremely loudly) about an absolutely infinitesimally small fraction of migrants coming over the channel. Britain is also AWFUL at integrating migrants, leading to "Polish" and "Pakistani" areas of cities. They're kinda cute and kitche in London, but the pakistani areas of Coventry are closer to isolated slums (and it's not their fault that it is that way). Britain is also the place where when I go to the pub with my mum someone is within earshot talking down "ragheads" or quipping about "darkies". Coventry in particular has a little hate boner going on because a lot of the students are Chinese -- even my Mum complains about it. (since "Students aren't paying council tax", but she's fine with british students, go figure.) The britain that I know is very far away from being "Open and Tolerant". I am now part of the Immigrant population in Sweden, I've also lived in Finland. You're joking if you think that Britain is more open and tolerant than these places. That's before we get to the Netherlands (which, while less open than Sweden) puts tax incentives in place to promote migration to the country! Britain would never do that! (unless absolutely-absolutely desperate: EG truck drivers post-brexit).
- native_samples 4y ago
  Bigger, obviously. Wealthier? Where did you get that idea? The EU is not particularly wealthy. Large parts of it are still considered poor, that's why so much IT gets outsourced to the eastern European countries. Italy GDP hasn't grown for 20 years. Germany is a surprisingly poor country relative to where it should be. If what you care about is size+wealth then the USA dominates. And, the only way to get better trade deals with the USA is to be outside the EU. Whether the USA wants to play or not depends a lot on whether a Democrat is in the White House because the Dems are very pro-EU (large centralized unaccountable power structure hmmm wonder why they love that). But politics comes and goes, eventually there will be another Republican in power and deals can get done. Certainly, for looking towards economic growth and enterprise, you don't want to be looking to the EU. It's all about heading over the Atlantic and then maybe, the Pacific.
ben_w 4y ago
I think both Norway and Switzerland are significantly closer to the EU than is the UK. With regards to who plays most by EU rules, I would indeed expect that the UK has not yet actually diverged, but diverging was (and remains) an explicit point of the exercise judging by the rhetoric of the politicians who campaigned for Brexit.

not2b 4y ago

Norway is in the European Economic Area, which allows for free movement of people, which is exactly the part that Brexiters hated the most. They aren't going to give that up. Switzerland is in the European Free Trade Association and part of the Schengen area, again allowing for free movement of people. Sure, they might sign deals to maintain trade with the UK, but won't accept any deal that would harm their ability to trade with the (much bigger and wealthier) EU.

Longhanks 4y ago
Are you implying the EU would try to forbid Switzerland and Britain from forming deals? Because the EU has literally zero say in that. This mindset of the EU trying to establish an implicit rule over Europe is the exact reason why it is so poorly regarded in Switzerland.
- ben_w 4y ago
  I think your question is “wet pavements cause rain” level of misinterpretation of what @not2b wrote. (I have no idea if what @not2b wrote is correct, but the causality in their comment is the exact opposite direction of what you’re asking is implied).
jollybean 4y ago
'Free Movement' can mean many things. It's an ideological to pro-EU political types ... but from a populist sense, European citizens themselves have something a bit closer to the UK view. 'Ideological Free Movement' means basically what they have in the US. Popularly, if it were put to a vote, European citizens would chose something more along the lines of 'unlimited, no visa travel and work' - which is not quite the same thing. Finally - be careful with concerns about 'It's what UK hated the most' - it's not quite true. The UK is the most open and tolerant country in the EU, it's also the one with considerably more migrants than most [1] UK attitudes towards migration are a function of the large scale of migrants that chose, the UK, much like almost all of the nations on the periphery of Europe i.e. Greece/Italy etc have 'very negative' views of migrants, at least partly due to the fact that for whatever reason they're just not able to integrate them. (Which is obviously a complicated thing). [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/03/14/around-the-world-more-say-immigrants-are-a-strength-than-a-burden/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/03/14/around-the-wor...
- dijit 4y ago
  > The UK is the most open and tolerant country in the EU, it's also the one with considerably more migrants than most Appreciate the citation provided but this is beyond the pale, I can't imagine we're even talking about the same Britain where I come from. Sweden and Germany bears more immigrants per capita than the UK does, Britain was complaining (extremely loudly) about an absolutely infinitesimally small fraction of migrants coming over the channel. Britain is also AWFUL at integrating migrants, leading to "Polish" and "Pakistani" areas of cities. They're kinda cute and kitche in London, but the pakistani areas of Coventry are closer to isolated slums (and it's not their fault that it is that way). Britain is also the place where when I go to the pub with my mum someone is within earshot talking down "ragheads" or quipping about "darkies". Coventry in particular has a little hate boner going on because a lot of the students are Chinese -- even my Mum complains about it. (since "Students aren't paying council tax", but she's fine with british students, go figure.) The britain that I know is very far away from being "Open and Tolerant". I am now part of the Immigrant population in Sweden, I've also lived in Finland. You're joking if you think that Britain is more open and tolerant than these places. That's before we get to the Netherlands (which, while less open than Sweden) puts tax incentives in place to promote migration to the country! Britain would never do that! (unless absolutely-absolutely desperate: EG truck drivers post-brexit).
native_samples 4y ago
Bigger, obviously. Wealthier? Where did you get that idea? The EU is not particularly wealthy. Large parts of it are still considered poor, that's why so much IT gets outsourced to the eastern European countries. Italy GDP hasn't grown for 20 years. Germany is a surprisingly poor country relative to where it should be. If what you care about is size+wealth then the USA dominates. And, the only way to get better trade deals with the USA is to be outside the EU. Whether the USA wants to play or not depends a lot on whether a Democrat is in the White House because the Dems are very pro-EU (large centralized unaccountable power structure hmmm wonder why they love that). But politics comes and goes, eventually there will be another Republican in power and deals can get done. Certainly, for looking towards economic growth and enterprise, you don't want to be looking to the EU. It's all about heading over the Atlantic and then maybe, the Pacific.

ben_w 4y ago

I think both Norway and Switzerland are significantly closer to the EU than is the UK. With regards to who plays most by EU rules, I would indeed expect that the UK has not yet actually diverged, but diverging was (and remains) an explicit point of the exercise judging by the rhetoric of the politicians who campaigned for Brexit.