5 ms·

Are there any downsides to messing with your gut bacteria? I seem to see a strong bias of positive studies, but if our gut bacteria is as important as it seems

by daenz 4y ago

Are there any downsides to messing with your gut bacteria? I seem to see a strong bias of positive studies, but if our gut bacteria is as important as it seems to be, shouldn't there also be horrible outcomes to these kinds of experiments?

kamarg 4y ago
I would think that any positive effect could be reversed by essentially giving the opposite. Want to decrease inflammation? Get a younger gut biome. Mess up and get an older gut biome and you probably end up with increased inflammation. There is also evidence that fecal transplant recipients take on physical and mental traits of the donor. Quoting from https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-09/faecal-transplant-side-effects-explored-at-conference/8510270 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-09/faecal-transplant-sid.... "There have been people who have taken on the shape of the donor, such as if the donor is either overweight or underweight they've become more like that." "There's even been reports of some people who have never been depressed getting a transplant from someone who's had depression and ending up with their first episode of depression after that."
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  Without robust statistical evidence these kinds of reports seem very prone to confirmation bias or placebo effect.
- scarby2 4y ago
  So i need to find someone who's fit, normal weight, and happy and steal their poop?
  - jessaustin 4y ago
    Theft is often unethical; you could simply buy the poop.
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    Step one start johnslist. Step two pretend to be a 6'6" Olympian fit to leave 100 years and die a barely aged god with great hair in Indiana Jonesque adventure. Step three omitted for grossness. Step four profit!
    - BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
      South Park satirized this, where Tom Brady’s stool was treated just like the Spice from Dune.
- stephen_g 4y ago
  Yeah. I have an annoying, but not debilitating autoimmune disease. I’ve read case studies of people who got a FMT for other reasons (fixing gut infection in hospital) who have the same disease but much worse having massive reductions in symptoms for years. I think maybe there are some RCTs happening now for it but I think they still have some years to run. But yeah, reading the stories like what you linked is why I am very wary - I really want to be able to get a prepared mix of isolated, cultured, known good bacteria that can be inserted in to just seed some more of the good stuff. I think that removes a lot more of the ‘ick’ factor (even if the bacteria strains were originally isolated from faecal samples) even though what I have is bad enough that I would totally do a normal FMT if I thought it was safe enough!
colechristensen 4y ago
Yes there is generally a bias towards "do something" and if you've done something obviously it helps (so it seems people think). Then again, it seems like in general the biggest gut bacteria problems come from an overpopulation of one type and not enough diversity which intervention seems less likely to cause. There are also parasites which could be transferred but I really doubt that this would happen accidentally (hookworms, tapeworms, other things I don't know about). But this is always a good thought. If some treatment has the capability to actually help, it also has the capability to harm, there really isn't such thing as something which is exclusively good regardless of how you use it.
lemmsjid 4y ago
There are indeed. Basically if you take certain antibiotics you're rolling the dice, because they kill off a bunch of your gut bacteria, and when the populations recover you might end up with toxic strains dominant which is an acute illness. I got a c difficile infection after a strong round of antibiotics. It took months to recover, because basically the treatment is to take more rounds of antibiotics and hope the right bacteria dominate.
- peatmoss 4y ago
  I wonder if ingestion of relatively large amounts of robust probiotics would have helped. I've tended kefir grains off and on for the last 20 years or so, and have read that the curd that forms from kefir remains intact a bit deeper into the GI tract than e.g. yogurt. Some people eat the grains themselves which seems like it would be a large, robust colony of mostly helpful bacteria that I assume would fight for territory against c diff. Reminds me, it's probably time to source some more kefir grains!
  - lemmsjid 4y ago
    Yes, in fact I didn’t put in all the details, after several rounds of unsuccessful antibiotic treatments I basically megadosed probiotics in several forms. It was that which actually stabilized me. I know the research is here or there, but due to that I always get a bunch of probiotics after I have antibiotics. I didn’t use kefir grains though, will look into that!
majormajor 4y ago
At least one person has died from a fecal transplant, in the following study: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/06/14/732870456/be-careful-of-fecal-transplants-warns-fda-after-patient-death https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/06/14/7328704... Not sure how well tracked it is for less-official/more DIY attempts. Lots of others have had positive effects, but there's definitely some risk involved.
jamal-kumar 4y ago
I got very sick from drinking (well-boiled!) water when i was desperate on an island in the Caribbean for some water. For the next 3 years I had horrible gut issues and was basically told by a doctor that there's only management and not really any cure for it. Then I heard about this probiotic bacteria called limosilactobacillus reuteri which was implicated in a bunch of studies as something that they used to find in people's guts back before processed food really became a huge thing and all these very clear links to a variety health effects (I'll just link the wiki page) [1]. When I went to the store it was the most expensive on the shelf, 40$, but I figured why not and got a couple of them. Haven't had any gut issues since. I think there's worse things you can do to your guts than using the right probiotics for sure.
- nathanvanfleet 4y ago
  lactobacillus reuteri? I can't find the specific one you're saying but I found one on amazon that was the one single strain of lactobacillus reuteri for $50. No it looks like you were correct at least that it exists.
  - jamal-kumar 4y ago
    They recently reclassified it
  - awiesenhofer 4y ago
    I guess they mean 'GUM PerioBalance'? but everything i find about it seems to be press releases of the company who patented the strain (sunstar), even the wiki page reads like an ad... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limosilactobacillus_reuteri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limosilactobacillus_reuteri
    - jamal-kumar 4y ago
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5917019/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5917019/ try this instead, I can see that the recent reclassification to limosilactobacillus has caused some confusion
yosito 4y ago
Yep. I was in the habit of drinking kombucha, thinking it could only help my gut bacteria. Drank some random kombucha once and I've had terrible gut issues for a year since.
nikkwong 4y ago
I've self administered FMT's from a friend for over a year now. There is an underground network of people performing this procedure, generally digestive but also psychiatric conditions. I'm not recommending it, however. In my case, I had debilitating health issues after a round of food poisoning that nearly took my life. In my specific case, the FMT's have helped a lot. Certainly, it is not without risks; however, one can minimize their risks by testing donor's stool, and asking for a full mental and physical evaluation to be performed.

by daenz 4y ago

kamarg 4y ago

I would think that any positive effect could be reversed by essentially giving the opposite. Want to decrease inflammation? Get a younger gut biome. Mess up and get an older gut biome and you probably end up with increased inflammation. There is also evidence that fecal transplant recipients take on physical and mental traits of the donor. Quoting from https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-09/faecal-transplant-side-effects-explored-at-conference/8510270 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-09/faecal-transplant-sid.... "There have been people who have taken on the shape of the donor, such as if the donor is either overweight or underweight they've become more like that." "There's even been reports of some people who have never been depressed getting a transplant from someone who's had depression and ending up with their first episode of depression after that."

AlexandrB 4y ago
Without robust statistical evidence these kinds of reports seem very prone to confirmation bias or placebo effect.
scarby2 4y ago
So i need to find someone who's fit, normal weight, and happy and steal their poop?
- jessaustin 4y ago
  Theft is often unethical; you could simply buy the poop.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  Step one start johnslist. Step two pretend to be a 6'6" Olympian fit to leave 100 years and die a barely aged god with great hair in Indiana Jonesque adventure. Step three omitted for grossness. Step four profit!
  - BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
    South Park satirized this, where Tom Brady’s stool was treated just like the Spice from Dune.
stephen_g 4y ago
Yeah. I have an annoying, but not debilitating autoimmune disease. I’ve read case studies of people who got a FMT for other reasons (fixing gut infection in hospital) who have the same disease but much worse having massive reductions in symptoms for years. I think maybe there are some RCTs happening now for it but I think they still have some years to run. But yeah, reading the stories like what you linked is why I am very wary - I really want to be able to get a prepared mix of isolated, cultured, known good bacteria that can be inserted in to just seed some more of the good stuff. I think that removes a lot more of the ‘ick’ factor (even if the bacteria strains were originally isolated from faecal samples) even though what I have is bad enough that I would totally do a normal FMT if I thought it was safe enough!

colechristensen 4y ago

Yes there is generally a bias towards "do something" and if you've done something obviously it helps (so it seems people think). Then again, it seems like in general the biggest gut bacteria problems come from an overpopulation of one type and not enough diversity which intervention seems less likely to cause. There are also parasites which could be transferred but I really doubt that this would happen accidentally (hookworms, tapeworms, other things I don't know about). But this is always a good thought. If some treatment has the capability to actually help, it also has the capability to harm, there really isn't such thing as something which is exclusively good regardless of how you use it.

lemmsjid 4y ago

There are indeed. Basically if you take certain antibiotics you're rolling the dice, because they kill off a bunch of your gut bacteria, and when the populations recover you might end up with toxic strains dominant which is an acute illness. I got a c difficile infection after a strong round of antibiotics. It took months to recover, because basically the treatment is to take more rounds of antibiotics and hope the right bacteria dominate.

peatmoss 4y ago
I wonder if ingestion of relatively large amounts of robust probiotics would have helped. I've tended kefir grains off and on for the last 20 years or so, and have read that the curd that forms from kefir remains intact a bit deeper into the GI tract than e.g. yogurt. Some people eat the grains themselves which seems like it would be a large, robust colony of mostly helpful bacteria that I assume would fight for territory against c diff. Reminds me, it's probably time to source some more kefir grains!
- lemmsjid 4y ago
  Yes, in fact I didn’t put in all the details, after several rounds of unsuccessful antibiotic treatments I basically megadosed probiotics in several forms. It was that which actually stabilized me. I know the research is here or there, but due to that I always get a bunch of probiotics after I have antibiotics. I didn’t use kefir grains though, will look into that!

majormajor 4y ago

At least one person has died from a fecal transplant, in the following study: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/06/14/732870456/be-careful-of-fecal-transplants-warns-fda-after-patient-death https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/06/14/7328704... Not sure how well tracked it is for less-official/more DIY attempts. Lots of others have had positive effects, but there's definitely some risk involved.

jamal-kumar 4y ago

I got very sick from drinking (well-boiled!) water when i was desperate on an island in the Caribbean for some water. For the next 3 years I had horrible gut issues and was basically told by a doctor that there's only management and not really any cure for it. Then I heard about this probiotic bacteria called limosilactobacillus reuteri which was implicated in a bunch of studies as something that they used to find in people's guts back before processed food really became a huge thing and all these very clear links to a variety health effects (I'll just link the wiki page) [1]. When I went to the store it was the most expensive on the shelf, 40$, but I figured why not and got a couple of them. Haven't had any gut issues since. I think there's worse things you can do to your guts than using the right probiotics for sure.

nathanvanfleet 4y ago
lactobacillus reuteri? I can't find the specific one you're saying but I found one on amazon that was the one single strain of lactobacillus reuteri for $50. No it looks like you were correct at least that it exists.
- jamal-kumar 4y ago
  They recently reclassified it
- awiesenhofer 4y ago
  I guess they mean 'GUM PerioBalance'? but everything i find about it seems to be press releases of the company who patented the strain (sunstar), even the wiki page reads like an ad... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limosilactobacillus_reuteri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limosilactobacillus_reuteri
  - jamal-kumar 4y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5917019/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5917019/ try this instead, I can see that the recent reclassification to limosilactobacillus has caused some confusion

yosito 4y ago

Yep. I was in the habit of drinking kombucha, thinking it could only help my gut bacteria. Drank some random kombucha once and I've had terrible gut issues for a year since.

nikkwong 4y ago

I've self administered FMT's from a friend for over a year now. There is an underground network of people performing this procedure, generally digestive but also psychiatric conditions. I'm not recommending it, however. In my case, I had debilitating health issues after a round of food poisoning that nearly took my life. In my specific case, the FMT's have helped a lot. Certainly, it is not without risks; however, one can minimize their risks by testing donor's stool, and asking for a full mental and physical evaluation to be performed.