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I was going to complain about conflating the market with the economy, but the more I wrote, the more I started to agree with you. Companies relying on crazy ma

I was going to complain about conflating the market with the economy, but the more I wrote, the more I started to agree with you. Companies relying on crazy market valuations will pop just like they always did. Companies with sufficient revenue OR cash should continue. Kubernetes is fine and it's not _unnecessary_. It's absolutely crucial to many companies and having this tech available has solved many problems. It creates other problems, of course. People like to complain about Kubernetes, but my viewpoint is that microservices is the unnecessary tech here. Sure, some stacks may benefit, but I'm willing to wager that most companies are not doing microservices, they are actually creating distributed monoliths just to be able to ship their org chart. And, in the process, adding all sorts of technologies that shouldn't be necessary.

datalopers 5y ago
Yep. The freedom of choice created by microservices and developer tendency to play with everything under the sun and immediately rewrite tooling into it. Now you have people writing node alongside python alongside haskell alongside rust in the same org all talking to eachother via really inefficient http calls. It’s not just that of course. It’s the entire web toolchain and build pipelines, SPAs, react, node/npm, that entire community reinventing “SSR” and caching. It’s the “modern data platform” movement where people stop using databases and slap everything into python and 10 layers of ETL and job queues and dags all so it loads into a cloud data platform with a separation of storage and compute at the end. It’s all a bunch of crap is my issue and why I call it a bubble. Nobody is solving actual business problems. They’re just creating tooling and then new companies to make that tooling less insufferable. As one tiny example, how much of say Datadog’s revenue is coming from overfunded VC companies who have never considered cost or utility. Those logs should have been sent to /dev/null in the first place is usually the answer.
- phillipcarter 5y ago
  I don't suspect you'd change your mind, but I disagree with this statement: > Nobody is solving actual business problems. I think most people are solving business problems and that you're (perhaps justifiably) jaded on the tech side of it.
  - outworlder 5y ago
    It's more like - there's a bunch of people trying solve business problems while having to work around technology decisions that they don't get to make, then hiring other people that are working on solving the problems created by said choices. The entire CNCF doesn't solve a single business problem. And I say this while working with K8s since 2016. Not once has a customer thanked me for my tech stack. You and the parent are probably talking about different people.
    - phillipcarter 5y ago
      > The entire CNCF doesn't solve a single business problem. Hmm, I disagree with that assertion. Yes, a customer isn't going to thank you for making an investment in depending on open standards. But it's often a worthy investment because it lets you hold other vendors you depend on accountable. I've seen this firsthand with OpenTelemetry and the Observability space, where it's not uncommon for vendors to lock you in and get weird and shitty with you. I'd love to live in a world where that didn't happen, but in this case I think there's a very real business problem being solved.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Eh, I don’t really have much of a problem with that. The HTTP calls are inefficient, but you don’t dispatch them in a tight loop so it’s a negligible concern. The more valid concerns are tracing calls through services, but I’ve never had much of a problem with this for whatever reason. And the alternative has its own issues, so (shrug).

datalopers 5y ago

Yep. The freedom of choice created by microservices and developer tendency to play with everything under the sun and immediately rewrite tooling into it. Now you have people writing node alongside python alongside haskell alongside rust in the same org all talking to eachother via really inefficient http calls. It’s not just that of course. It’s the entire web toolchain and build pipelines, SPAs, react, node/npm, that entire community reinventing “SSR” and caching. It’s the “modern data platform” movement where people stop using databases and slap everything into python and 10 layers of ETL and job queues and dags all so it loads into a cloud data platform with a separation of storage and compute at the end. It’s all a bunch of crap is my issue and why I call it a bubble. Nobody is solving actual business problems. They’re just creating tooling and then new companies to make that tooling less insufferable. As one tiny example, how much of say Datadog’s revenue is coming from overfunded VC companies who have never considered cost or utility. Those logs should have been sent to /dev/null in the first place is usually the answer.

phillipcarter 5y ago
I don't suspect you'd change your mind, but I disagree with this statement: > Nobody is solving actual business problems. I think most people are solving business problems and that you're (perhaps justifiably) jaded on the tech side of it.
- outworlder 5y ago
  It's more like - there's a bunch of people trying solve business problems while having to work around technology decisions that they don't get to make, then hiring other people that are working on solving the problems created by said choices. The entire CNCF doesn't solve a single business problem. And I say this while working with K8s since 2016. Not once has a customer thanked me for my tech stack. You and the parent are probably talking about different people.
  - phillipcarter 5y ago
    > The entire CNCF doesn't solve a single business problem. Hmm, I disagree with that assertion. Yes, a customer isn't going to thank you for making an investment in depending on open standards. But it's often a worthy investment because it lets you hold other vendors you depend on accountable. I've seen this firsthand with OpenTelemetry and the Observability space, where it's not uncommon for vendors to lock you in and get weird and shitty with you. I'd love to live in a world where that didn't happen, but in this case I think there's a very real business problem being solved.
throwaway894345 5y ago
Eh, I don’t really have much of a problem with that. The HTTP calls are inefficient, but you don’t dispatch them in a tight loop so it’s a negligible concern. The more valid concerns are tracing calls through services, but I’ve never had much of a problem with this for whatever reason. And the alternative has its own issues, so (shrug).