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Jonathan Blow on how Microsoft responded to Windows Terminal suggestions

69 points by DantesKite 4y ago

2pEXgD0fZ5cF 4y ago
> (4) Casey sits down and writes termbench, to illustrate his point (https://github.com/cmuratori/termbench); https://github.com/cmuratori/termbench); it is indeed orders of magnitude faster than Windows Terminal, and proves his point decisively. This is actually pretty interesting. Is there something similar specifically for linux?
- xaxaxb 4y ago
  I think you included the right parenthesis with the link. It's giving 404. Could you edit it?
  - 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 4y ago
    Ah you're right! Unfortunately I can no longer edit my comment. For anybody wondering, this is the correct url by itself: https://github.com/cmuratori/termbench https://github.com/cmuratori/termbench
jbluepolarbear 4y ago
Both Jonathan Blow and Casey Muratori have a history of being toxic and dismissive in their own right. I can’t really fault Microsoft here because of how argumentative and arrogant Casey has acted in the past. And Jonathan should have stayed out of this whole thing.
- memish 4y ago
  All I see here is competence on the side of Blow and Casey. Incompetence and arrogance on the side of Microsoft.
  - eco 4y ago
    They are both incredibly talented. I've watched dozens of hours of them programming and really enjoy their streams. They are also both kind of assholes. Some people love that about them. I've certainly found myself really enjoying many of their rants. Casey was pleasant enough in the github thread but he was less generous in his streams about this. He really did not like being talked down to (who would?) and spent a long time mocking them. They clearly did not know who Casey was or they probably wouldn't have tried to explain his concerns away (especially when they were wrong). If you don't see arrogance on Casey's side though then I suspect you haven't watched enough of his streams. While he's very humble and will go out of his way to say when he doesn't know something, he's very arrogant in the subjects he knows well and will very openly mock anyone who isn't doing things as well as he expects them to (in an abstract sense, he doesn't really target individuals). I find his attitude so frustrating sometimes because he clearly loves teaching and I can't think of another single programmer more generous with their time and knowledge but at the same time he cannot abide anyone not at his level. I'm a fan of Casey and I really like Windows Terminal (compared to what we had before especially). This whole thing was not a good look for either side but on the plus side, Windows Terminal is now closer to being at Casey's level so I guess he ultimately won. I just wish instead he'd tried to contribute his ideas to Windows Terminal instead of spending hours programming his own toy terminal whose whole existence was to mock them. I don't think he has it in him to lower himself to that though.
    - rstat1 4y ago
      To be fair, he did try to contribute. One of the posts in the original Github thread was a reasonably detailed explanation of how to do what he was proposing, and it was dismissed as a "PHD level deep dive in to text rendering" or something similar. I tend to agree with you on about how the 2 of them choose to communicate their opinions at times, but honestly in this case I think it was fully warranted.
      - ripley12 4y ago
        It's gone on for almost a year now. Some initial response was warranted but IMO continuing to bring this up is reflecting poorly on Casey at this point.
- Sakos 4y ago
  So you're excusing Microsoft's poor or even abhorrent response because Jonathan and Casey may have been difficult in the past? What the fuck.
- tpoacher 4y ago
  > have a history eh? so? > should have stayed out eh? why?
maxique 4y ago
Further discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31284419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31284419
mikestew 4y ago
Am I the only one that only gets "Hmm...this page doesn’t exist. Try searching for something else." when clicking the link?
- trynewideas 4y ago
  Blow deleted the tweet.
- adamnemecek 4y ago
  https://web.archive.org/web/20220506173149/https://twitter.com/jonathan_blow/status/1522623413675868161 https://web.archive.org/web/20220506173149/https://twitter.c...
rasz 4y ago
tweet deleted, but this gem https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/case-study-how-many-colors-are-too-many-colors-for-windows-terminal/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/case-study-how-ma... is full of "simply" and "just", quite surprising considering "describing something that might be considered an entire doctoral research project in performant terminal emulation as “extremely simple” somewhat combatively". Someone is owed apology.

69 points by DantesKite 4y ago

> (4) Casey sits down and writes termbench, to illustrate his point (https://github.com/cmuratori/termbench); https://github.com/cmuratori/termbench); it is indeed orders of magnitude faster than Windows Terminal, and proves his point decisively. This is actually pretty interesting. Is there something similar specifically for linux?

xaxaxb 4y ago
I think you included the right parenthesis with the link. It's giving 404. Could you edit it?
- 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 4y ago
  Ah you're right! Unfortunately I can no longer edit my comment. For anybody wondering, this is the correct url by itself: https://github.com/cmuratori/termbench https://github.com/cmuratori/termbench

jbluepolarbear 4y ago

Both Jonathan Blow and Casey Muratori have a history of being toxic and dismissive in their own right. I can’t really fault Microsoft here because of how argumentative and arrogant Casey has acted in the past. And Jonathan should have stayed out of this whole thing.

memish 4y ago
All I see here is competence on the side of Blow and Casey. Incompetence and arrogance on the side of Microsoft.
- eco 4y ago
  They are both incredibly talented. I've watched dozens of hours of them programming and really enjoy their streams. They are also both kind of assholes. Some people love that about them. I've certainly found myself really enjoying many of their rants. Casey was pleasant enough in the github thread but he was less generous in his streams about this. He really did not like being talked down to (who would?) and spent a long time mocking them. They clearly did not know who Casey was or they probably wouldn't have tried to explain his concerns away (especially when they were wrong). If you don't see arrogance on Casey's side though then I suspect you haven't watched enough of his streams. While he's very humble and will go out of his way to say when he doesn't know something, he's very arrogant in the subjects he knows well and will very openly mock anyone who isn't doing things as well as he expects them to (in an abstract sense, he doesn't really target individuals). I find his attitude so frustrating sometimes because he clearly loves teaching and I can't think of another single programmer more generous with their time and knowledge but at the same time he cannot abide anyone not at his level. I'm a fan of Casey and I really like Windows Terminal (compared to what we had before especially). This whole thing was not a good look for either side but on the plus side, Windows Terminal is now closer to being at Casey's level so I guess he ultimately won. I just wish instead he'd tried to contribute his ideas to Windows Terminal instead of spending hours programming his own toy terminal whose whole existence was to mock them. I don't think he has it in him to lower himself to that though.
  - rstat1 4y ago
    To be fair, he did try to contribute. One of the posts in the original Github thread was a reasonably detailed explanation of how to do what he was proposing, and it was dismissed as a "PHD level deep dive in to text rendering" or something similar. I tend to agree with you on about how the 2 of them choose to communicate their opinions at times, but honestly in this case I think it was fully warranted.
    - ripley12 4y ago
      It's gone on for almost a year now. Some initial response was warranted but IMO continuing to bring this up is reflecting poorly on Casey at this point.
Sakos 4y ago
So you're excusing Microsoft's poor or even abhorrent response because Jonathan and Casey may have been difficult in the past? What the fuck.
tpoacher 4y ago
> have a history eh? so? > should have stayed out eh? why?

maxique 4y ago

Further discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31284419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31284419

mikestew 4y ago

Am I the only one that only gets "Hmm...this page doesn’t exist. Try searching for something else." when clicking the link?

trynewideas 4y ago
Blow deleted the tweet.
adamnemecek 4y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20220506173149/https://twitter.com/jonathan_blow/status/1522623413675868161 https://web.archive.org/web/20220506173149/https://twitter.c...

rasz 4y ago

tweet deleted, but this gem https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/case-study-how-many-colors-are-too-many-colors-for-windows-terminal/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/case-study-how-ma... is full of "simply" and "just", quite surprising considering "describing something that might be considered an entire doctoral research project in performant terminal emulation as “extremely simple” somewhat combatively". Someone is owed apology.