3 ms·

Its not like private sector is free from overspending and funds misallocation - most of money that flows in there is still controller by the jerks on top that a

by v-erne 4y ago

Its not like private sector is free from overspending and funds misallocation - most of money that flows in there is still controller by the jerks on top that are stroking their ego by investing in buzzwords. The invisible hand of market is myth as much as santa is.

cudgy 4y ago
The US market is far from the invisible hand. There is a massive hand with a club attached called the Federal Reserve, which has artificially held down interest rates resulting in a major manipulation of the housing market. Additionally, there are numerous governmental restrictions on minimum square footage, sometimes onerous building codes, impact fees, and zoning restrictions to name a few.
- v-erne 4y ago
  No true scotsman, ay? Yes, there are many artificial constructs that prevent true free market, but I still do not believe that capital accumulation by capital overs is not an property of this idealistic system. Do You have any real example of invisible hand working (by which I mean not ending with the top dogs holding all the bones) ?
  - notch656a 4y ago
    You acknowledge the imperfection of the private sector, including wasteful spending. Now imagine that except with the power to waste even more money by sending an IRS agent to take your money at gunpoint and without being constrained by (at least if 'turtledove' word to be take) a ' profit motive'.
    - v-erne 4y ago
      Profit motive is so primitive and so one dimensional constrained and yet it somehow mesmerized so many thinkers that we build build "golden idols" in praise of it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull). I do not believe that this is it - there have to be other better constrains combinations. It just that there is so much vested interest in current system that no one will dare to contest it enough to really try something different.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        >Profit motive is so primitive Is this a rebuttal to turtledove for introducing the notion of 'profit motive?' His introduction is the source of our discussion on 'profit motive.' >(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull). The beautiful thing about art is you can interpret it however you want. You interpret it as a "golden idol" of the profit motive. I could interpret it as an angry bull sick of the ways of capitalism; a bull that wants to inspire free health care for all.
        v-erne 4y ago
        I marely tried to defend our ability (as humans) to create more complex systems that works. I do not believe that free makrets are the end game. The obvious inefficiency of public sector does not make capitalism the ultimate answer.
jacobr1 4y ago
The invisible hand is just the profit motive. Most people are indeed incentivized by (not solely) by money and profit. The advantage of a market in this context is two-fold 1) Private-losses, mispent investments should have the investors bear the cost of losses. Granted, we often bail out investors or banks, but that isn't a market phenomena, it is a political one. 2) Where there is more profit to be had (high prices) there is more incentive for more investment. Now, one could argue that a market system is more likely to be corrupted such that the connected get bailed out or other advantages. But if you don't trust the political system to regulate the market, why would you expect it to better regulate a bureaucracy that more directly controls the relevant resources?
- v-erne 4y ago
  >>The invisible hand is just the profit motive I think You are underselling it - that's just the mechanic through which it works. But at the same time too mamy people treat it as idealogy and sell it as a silver bullet and not merly a tool which it should be. My main point is that we should not see markets as an end game - this is just a primitive human made system that should be evolved.

by v-erne 4y ago

cudgy 4y ago

The US market is far from the invisible hand. There is a massive hand with a club attached called the Federal Reserve, which has artificially held down interest rates resulting in a major manipulation of the housing market. Additionally, there are numerous governmental restrictions on minimum square footage, sometimes onerous building codes, impact fees, and zoning restrictions to name a few.

v-erne 4y ago
No true scotsman, ay? Yes, there are many artificial constructs that prevent true free market, but I still do not believe that capital accumulation by capital overs is not an property of this idealistic system. Do You have any real example of invisible hand working (by which I mean not ending with the top dogs holding all the bones) ?
- notch656a 4y ago
  You acknowledge the imperfection of the private sector, including wasteful spending. Now imagine that except with the power to waste even more money by sending an IRS agent to take your money at gunpoint and without being constrained by (at least if 'turtledove' word to be take) a ' profit motive'.
  - v-erne 4y ago
    Profit motive is so primitive and so one dimensional constrained and yet it somehow mesmerized so many thinkers that we build build "golden idols" in praise of it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull). I do not believe that this is it - there have to be other better constrains combinations. It just that there is so much vested interest in current system that no one will dare to contest it enough to really try something different.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      >Profit motive is so primitive Is this a rebuttal to turtledove for introducing the notion of 'profit motive?' His introduction is the source of our discussion on 'profit motive.' >(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull). The beautiful thing about art is you can interpret it however you want. You interpret it as a "golden idol" of the profit motive. I could interpret it as an angry bull sick of the ways of capitalism; a bull that wants to inspire free health care for all.
      - v-erne 4y ago
        I marely tried to defend our ability (as humans) to create more complex systems that works. I do not believe that free makrets are the end game. The obvious inefficiency of public sector does not make capitalism the ultimate answer.

jacobr1 4y ago

The invisible hand is just the profit motive. Most people are indeed incentivized by (not solely) by money and profit. The advantage of a market in this context is two-fold 1) Private-losses, mispent investments should have the investors bear the cost of losses. Granted, we often bail out investors or banks, but that isn't a market phenomena, it is a political one. 2) Where there is more profit to be had (high prices) there is more incentive for more investment. Now, one could argue that a market system is more likely to be corrupted such that the connected get bailed out or other advantages. But if you don't trust the political system to regulate the market, why would you expect it to better regulate a bureaucracy that more directly controls the relevant resources?

v-erne 4y ago
>>The invisible hand is just the profit motive I think You are underselling it - that's just the mechanic through which it works. But at the same time too mamy people treat it as idealogy and sell it as a silver bullet and not merly a tool which it should be. My main point is that we should not see markets as an end game - this is just a primitive human made system that should be evolved.