5 ms·

Nobody defecating outside is doing it because they found out it’s not being prosecuted, they’re doing it because they don’t have any other option.

by akerl_ 5y ago

babyshake 5y ago
Defecting outside of a toilet is one thing. Defecating on the middle of a sidewalk is a different thing altogether. It is possible to defecate on a piece of waste paper and throw it away in the nearest garbage. People do it all the time.
proc0 5y ago
That doesn't explain why those same people were not doing that years prior to that policy change. SF had walkable streets not even 10 years ago, and poop patrol didn't exist and was not needed. I think not prosecuting is one part of the solution but it needed to be implement alongside a real solution to the root problem. Many people living on the streets have mental issues of all kinds, and not addressing that while simultaneously removing all boundaries when it comes to what they can or cannot do outside, is quite obviously going to create mayhem. The cynical side of me thinks that could be the end goal, but that's a different matter.
- yodon 5y ago
  Recycling laws changed and plastic bags ceased to be readily available. It's not a change in prosecution that happened, it's a change in the availability of the disposal mechanism.
  - Aloha 5y ago
    I think you actually hit the nail on the head. The homeless have always been there, the poop, the needles, and the other trash was less visible - until the plastic bag bans - now there is no ready disposal mechanism.
  - spfzero 5y ago
    Sure, whenever I can't find a convenient plastic bag when I need to defecate, I just do it in the street, because, what choice do I have?
civilized 5y ago
I don't know why some people just automatically assume that all problematic behavior was done out of desperation. All stealing is just for loaves of bread to feed a starving family. All street defecation is an act of desperation after a good faith search for a toilet. etc. Are people angels who only behave badly when horrible circumstances leave them with no options? I just don't understand how someone could believe this. It would seem to take a very sheltered life where ideology takes the place of real human experience.
- akerl_ 5y ago
  Just so we’re clear, your argument is that there’s folks out there who, upon needing to take a shit, think “hmm, I could go to a bathroom, but since nobody will prosecute me for taking off my pants and shitting here on the sidewalk, I’ll do that”? There are certainly people who do bad things because they’re bad people. But yes, on average, people who behave badly are doing so because of limited options, not because they’re really keen on crime.
  - civilized 5y ago
    The majority of homeless people are in the grip of drug addiction. They are already doing something illegal, completely unnecessary, and harmful to themselves because it feels good in the moment. So yes, I do think impulsive public defecation is a thing. People are already shooting up in the streets, why not other stuff too? If toilets are sometimes inconvenient, by all means add more, but it won't end the problem.
    - akerl_ 5y ago
      I think if we’re at the point where you think that the majority of homeless people are drug addicts, and that drug addicts are doing something “completely unnecessary because it feels good in the moment”, we’ve bottomed out the conversation.
      - civilized 5y ago
        I had seen some reports that it was a majority. Looking again, I'm seeing more like 30-40% for alcohol and 10-30% for drug abuse. It is very common by almost all accounts. I am not squeamish about pointing out the nature of self-destructive behavior. I don't think it does anyone any favors to ignore things because we are uncomfortable with perceived implications. We can sympathize with drug abusers and their circumstances while recognizing that they are behaving in a self-destructive and often other-destructive way.
dehrmann 5y ago
Drug dealing is different, though. It's not necessarily a choice between homelessness and drug dealing; it might be between living in an SRO, barely getting by, and drug dealing. At some point, there's a threshold where drug dealing has the better outcome, but the situation you're coming from wasn't that bad.
- akerl_ 5y ago
  Is it? The comment I replied to above presents the idea that this court decision is bad because it telegraphs to drug dealers that they can get away with existing in the Tenderloin, because the courts have determined that the government can’t preemptively ban then from doing so. The comment above posits that this removes an effective disincentive and will lead to more drug dealers in the area. My premise is that no drug dealer is factoring in this kind of disincentive at all into their calculus. Studies have shown that even more severe criminal penalties like long-term jail sentences don’t serve as an effective deterrent, because they don’t actually treat the factors that lead to somebody deciding to commit a crime, and once they do, the concept that there may be a harsh penalty if caught isn’t a factor.
devoutsalsa 5y ago
I want to agree with you. But I also saw a guy on pissing on the street on San Francisco directly across the street from a public toilet. An opposite experience was I walked by a woman who was pissing between two parked cars. She apologized when I saw her. I walked by her again about an hour later, and she thanked me for not yelling at her. She said she was peeing in public because she had no access to a toilet.
jimmygrapes 5y ago
Once upon a time single use plastic bags were used by the homeless as receptacles for waste. Guess what happened.
- labster 5y ago
  The plastic bags got tired of that shit every day and formed a union?
calculatte 5y ago
They do it because they are high on drugs and don't care where they crap. That's the truth.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Ekaros 5y ago
I would argue that if such thing was prosecuted they would at least do it somewhere they would not be observed and found out. Maybe moving the problem to alleyways or behind buildings. But that would still likely be better option for general cleanliness.

Nobody defecating outside is doing it because they found out it’s not being prosecuted, they’re doing it because they don’t have any other option.

by akerl_ 5y ago

Nobody defecating outside is doing it because they found out it’s not being prosecuted, they’re doing it because they don’t have any other option.

babyshake 5y ago

Defecting outside of a toilet is one thing. Defecating on the middle of a sidewalk is a different thing altogether. It is possible to defecate on a piece of waste paper and throw it away in the nearest garbage. People do it all the time.

proc0 5y ago

That doesn't explain why those same people were not doing that years prior to that policy change. SF had walkable streets not even 10 years ago, and poop patrol didn't exist and was not needed. I think not prosecuting is one part of the solution but it needed to be implement alongside a real solution to the root problem. Many people living on the streets have mental issues of all kinds, and not addressing that while simultaneously removing all boundaries when it comes to what they can or cannot do outside, is quite obviously going to create mayhem. The cynical side of me thinks that could be the end goal, but that's a different matter.

yodon 5y ago
Recycling laws changed and plastic bags ceased to be readily available. It's not a change in prosecution that happened, it's a change in the availability of the disposal mechanism.
- Aloha 5y ago
  I think you actually hit the nail on the head. The homeless have always been there, the poop, the needles, and the other trash was less visible - until the plastic bag bans - now there is no ready disposal mechanism.
- spfzero 5y ago
  Sure, whenever I can't find a convenient plastic bag when I need to defecate, I just do it in the street, because, what choice do I have?

civilized 5y ago

I don't know why some people just automatically assume that all problematic behavior was done out of desperation. All stealing is just for loaves of bread to feed a starving family. All street defecation is an act of desperation after a good faith search for a toilet. etc. Are people angels who only behave badly when horrible circumstances leave them with no options? I just don't understand how someone could believe this. It would seem to take a very sheltered life where ideology takes the place of real human experience.

akerl_ 5y ago
Just so we’re clear, your argument is that there’s folks out there who, upon needing to take a shit, think “hmm, I could go to a bathroom, but since nobody will prosecute me for taking off my pants and shitting here on the sidewalk, I’ll do that”? There are certainly people who do bad things because they’re bad people. But yes, on average, people who behave badly are doing so because of limited options, not because they’re really keen on crime.
- civilized 5y ago
  The majority of homeless people are in the grip of drug addiction. They are already doing something illegal, completely unnecessary, and harmful to themselves because it feels good in the moment. So yes, I do think impulsive public defecation is a thing. People are already shooting up in the streets, why not other stuff too? If toilets are sometimes inconvenient, by all means add more, but it won't end the problem.
  - akerl_ 5y ago
    I think if we’re at the point where you think that the majority of homeless people are drug addicts, and that drug addicts are doing something “completely unnecessary because it feels good in the moment”, we’ve bottomed out the conversation.
    - civilized 5y ago
      I had seen some reports that it was a majority. Looking again, I'm seeing more like 30-40% for alcohol and 10-30% for drug abuse. It is very common by almost all accounts. I am not squeamish about pointing out the nature of self-destructive behavior. I don't think it does anyone any favors to ignore things because we are uncomfortable with perceived implications. We can sympathize with drug abusers and their circumstances while recognizing that they are behaving in a self-destructive and often other-destructive way.

dehrmann 5y ago

Drug dealing is different, though. It's not necessarily a choice between homelessness and drug dealing; it might be between living in an SRO, barely getting by, and drug dealing. At some point, there's a threshold where drug dealing has the better outcome, but the situation you're coming from wasn't that bad.

akerl_ 5y ago
Is it? The comment I replied to above presents the idea that this court decision is bad because it telegraphs to drug dealers that they can get away with existing in the Tenderloin, because the courts have determined that the government can’t preemptively ban then from doing so. The comment above posits that this removes an effective disincentive and will lead to more drug dealers in the area. My premise is that no drug dealer is factoring in this kind of disincentive at all into their calculus. Studies have shown that even more severe criminal penalties like long-term jail sentences don’t serve as an effective deterrent, because they don’t actually treat the factors that lead to somebody deciding to commit a crime, and once they do, the concept that there may be a harsh penalty if caught isn’t a factor.

devoutsalsa 5y ago

I want to agree with you. But I also saw a guy on pissing on the street on San Francisco directly across the street from a public toilet. An opposite experience was I walked by a woman who was pissing between two parked cars. She apologized when I saw her. I walked by her again about an hour later, and she thanked me for not yelling at her. She said she was peeing in public because she had no access to a toilet.

jimmygrapes 5y ago

Once upon a time single use plastic bags were used by the homeless as receptacles for waste. Guess what happened.

labster 5y ago
The plastic bags got tired of that shit every day and formed a union?

calculatte 5y ago

They do it because they are high on drugs and don't care where they crap. That's the truth.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Ekaros 5y ago

I would argue that if such thing was prosecuted they would at least do it somewhere they would not be observed and found out. Maybe moving the problem to alleyways or behind buildings. But that would still likely be better option for general cleanliness.