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> Rust can be similarly high level as Python In fact, Rust is MORE high level than python and most languages. That is exactly the borrow checker and all the ot

by mamcx 4y ago

> Rust can be similarly high level as Python In fact, Rust is MORE high level than python and most languages. That is exactly the borrow checker and all the other things are. What is not, is being "simple" as python. I code now full Rust and is the most productive language in my +20 years of this. My other picks: python, Delphi, FoxPro. But is not productive exactly the same way python/delphi is. It has other axes of it. So in some task Python is unmatched and my main pick for scripting or brainstorming stuff. But Rust is the best at being overall productive. Where is not (today) is lack of time/resources to be there (like GUIs. But honestly, nothing compare to FoxPro/delphi)...

girvo 4y ago
> nothing compare to FoxPro/delphi Amen. Every so often I boot up Lazarus and lament what could have been. Even the best web-dev frontend tools and frameworks do not come close. I wonder if there is even a market for those sorts of tools today, though. I wasn't there for the decline of Delphi (and FoxPro, et al), so I've no real reference as to why they declined.
- mamcx 4y ago
  I think all the stuff about nocode/lowcode/jupyter/etc say exist the market, but is going in a overly weird route, as if nobody know what this tools can do. My dream is rebuild it: https://tablam.org https://tablam.org!
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Qt, WPF, OutSystems,... The tools are out there, even Delphi is still being sold and having a yearly conference in Germany. They declined because only developers working at Fortune 500's get to pay for software. When one only wants to have free beer, they get to have what the street bazaars can offer, instead of what the monks are using at the cathedral.
kaba0 4y ago
No, this low-high level axis is not really “permeable”. You can maybe get as productive in rust as in some managed language at the first time you write the program. But later maintenance will simply drop your productivity as any refactor will likely alter your whole memory/ownership model and cause much more refactor recursively. Sure, you may say that “but it will be correct in the end while in python you have to hunt down the newly created bugs” and you might be right, but it is not a small price to pay. Managed languages let you get away with many many unanswered questions that you have to meticulously answer in case of low level ones, and I think it is a fair tradeoff depending on use-case. But as much as I love Rust, I won’t choose it for some database-mangling web service.
- DeathArrow 4y ago
  That's a valid criticism. While I can be much more productive in .NET with the help of the language, the compiler, the IDE, intellisense and copilot, looking at last Techempower benchmarks, Rust is still 1.6 faster. I would use Rust for Web if I'd have to squeeze every bit of performance. Most of the of the time I don't have such need for performance.
- mamcx 4y ago
  > But later maintenance will simply drop your productivity as any refactor This is very off weird take: Refactoring in Rust is one of their strengths as language (a major one!) where even VERY deep changes can be done in economical times. Try the same in python is nearly impossible. And I mean it: I fully rewritten all my app (a fairly complex niche eCommerce platform) to async and remade all things along it. And I have A LOT of experience building, rewriting, and porting code; and Rust is the faster/more friendly to refactor both large or small in all my years. However, I concede that get the knowledge with Rust have challenges and my first attempts at this (when doing my hobby https://tablam.org https://tablam.org language) were miserable by lack of understanding, so it could be a factor.
DeathArrow 4y ago
>Where is not (today) is lack of time/resources to be there (like GUIs. But honestly, nothing compare to FoxPro/delphi) A few that come to my mind: C++ Builder, QT, Windows Forms, Xamarin, .NET MAUI.

by mamcx 4y ago

girvo 4y ago

> nothing compare to FoxPro/delphi Amen. Every so often I boot up Lazarus and lament what could have been. Even the best web-dev frontend tools and frameworks do not come close. I wonder if there is even a market for those sorts of tools today, though. I wasn't there for the decline of Delphi (and FoxPro, et al), so I've no real reference as to why they declined.

mamcx 4y ago
I think all the stuff about nocode/lowcode/jupyter/etc say exist the market, but is going in a overly weird route, as if nobody know what this tools can do. My dream is rebuild it: https://tablam.org https://tablam.org!
pjmlp 4y ago
Qt, WPF, OutSystems,... The tools are out there, even Delphi is still being sold and having a yearly conference in Germany. They declined because only developers working at Fortune 500's get to pay for software. When one only wants to have free beer, they get to have what the street bazaars can offer, instead of what the monks are using at the cathedral.

kaba0 4y ago

No, this low-high level axis is not really “permeable”. You can maybe get as productive in rust as in some managed language at the first time you write the program. But later maintenance will simply drop your productivity as any refactor will likely alter your whole memory/ownership model and cause much more refactor recursively. Sure, you may say that “but it will be correct in the end while in python you have to hunt down the newly created bugs” and you might be right, but it is not a small price to pay. Managed languages let you get away with many many unanswered questions that you have to meticulously answer in case of low level ones, and I think it is a fair tradeoff depending on use-case. But as much as I love Rust, I won’t choose it for some database-mangling web service.

DeathArrow 4y ago
That's a valid criticism. While I can be much more productive in .NET with the help of the language, the compiler, the IDE, intellisense and copilot, looking at last Techempower benchmarks, Rust is still 1.6 faster. I would use Rust for Web if I'd have to squeeze every bit of performance. Most of the of the time I don't have such need for performance.
mamcx 4y ago
> But later maintenance will simply drop your productivity as any refactor This is very off weird take: Refactoring in Rust is one of their strengths as language (a major one!) where even VERY deep changes can be done in economical times. Try the same in python is nearly impossible. And I mean it: I fully rewritten all my app (a fairly complex niche eCommerce platform) to async and remade all things along it. And I have A LOT of experience building, rewriting, and porting code; and Rust is the faster/more friendly to refactor both large or small in all my years. However, I concede that get the knowledge with Rust have challenges and my first attempts at this (when doing my hobby https://tablam.org https://tablam.org language) were miserable by lack of understanding, so it could be a factor.

DeathArrow 4y ago

>Where is not (today) is lack of time/resources to be there (like GUIs. But honestly, nothing compare to FoxPro/delphi) A few that come to my mind: C++ Builder, QT, Windows Forms, Xamarin, .NET MAUI.