3 ms·

The point you're missing is that Microsoft is actively improving chromium

WorldMaker 4y ago
I don't think I'm "missing" that point, but I do think you are missing mine: Amazon has tried to improve the Android ecosystem since day one, on the taking things at face value that Android was supposed to be an open platform for innovation, and instead has failed in just about every possible way. More than any other company, Amazon continues to prove that you cannot improve Android without Google's rubber stamp and that no one wants an AOSP-based phone without "Play Services" or Google's App Store. Amazon's App Store is still the next biggest Android App Store after Google's and it can barely be listed as an "Also Ran" on the scorecard way below Google's numbers. Samsung similarly has spend nearly as much effort trying to improve Android and seen all sorts of failures. They've proved that few care about AOSP hardware improvements if it doesn't have Google's rubber stamp. They've proved in their own attempts no one wants an AOSP-based phone without "Play Services" or Google's App Store. They've proved that you can't use AOSP certified hardware to bypass the cellphone carriers' extreme aversion to a Third option in the ecosystem and continue to fail at trying to bring Tizen phones to market (because the cell carriers don't care about AOSP, they care about "Android" TM, Google Style). What kind of "active improvement" can Microsoft bring to Android that Amazon and Samsung haven't already tried and failed at? What would be any sort of point in Microsoft investing in AOSP-based products when they have no easier time of selling them through today's cell carriers than they had with a proven Kernel and software stack that they own entirely? Especially without Google's complete consent and access to "Play Services" and the Google App Store moat, what can Microsoft possibly offer in Android that they couldn't better offer in "Windows Phone 11" that wouldn't also see the same extraordinary bad luck/worse market conditions than Windows Phone <= 10? (ETA: Especially all that as opposed to by the time Edge switched to Chromium there were already a half-dozen other browsers using Chromium as their base and also Microsoft had already contributed multiple improvements to Chromium for years. There's no "success stories" in "Open Source" Android. There's very few people running de-Gooogled Android successfully and no one has been able to market one successfully in stores. Microsoft themselves even contributed cash for some of the hard lessons of Cyanogen, Inc.'s funding for their eventual burnout.)
- SemanticStrengh 4y ago
  Yes dethroning the google play services is a hard goal so here I'm mostly advocating for microsoft to keep the play services (and propose at the same time a side store to reduce paid/subscription apps costs). BTW any idea why the android tax doesn't apply to netflix? > What kind of "active improvement" can Microsoft bring to Android that Amazon and Samsung haven't already tried and failed at? A lot.. 1) the android Java VM is dogshit and abandonware, using openjdk would bring support for modern java, significantly improve performance on key workloads (e.g. ZGC sub 1ms pauses for android gaming..) and have a different impact of energy consumption. Those are 3 disruptives dimensions where microsoft can differentiate. 2) bring support for other programming languages would bring a competitive advantage vs the java only apps. 3) have an up to date linux kernel... Also properly finetuned like the Clear linux distro AKA disruptive perf 4) at the OS level there are many ways to improve the experience e.g. ships by default with a browser that has extensions support (such as Kiwi browser). Prebundle a power user extension pack (wikipedia link preview, tab search, etc) generally propose at installation time to optin for expert chosen apps that improve the experience (swiftkey, Tree of life, pomodoros, a notion like note taking app, etc). Moreover the playstore is filled with crappy app, there should be a default app that curate them and provide meaningful recommendations instead of letting users navigate that ocean of garbage in search of the hidden pearl. fix the many ergonomic nonsense failures (e.g ability to quickly set app, phone and alarm volume in any context). Backport many ideas found only in iphones. Correct absurdities such as Bluetooth profiles with mics not allowing spatial audio. also my lack of disk space force me to delete apps. Fine but how can't my O.S keep track of my deleted apps so that I don't have to remember their names to reinstall them.. I'm just someone who put 5minutes thinking about how to differentiate and alleviate pain points from Android, now imagine what a team of experts in user experience, paid full time could achieve in specifying the ideal smartphone O.S
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    > Yes dethroning the google play services is a hard goal so here I'm mostly advocating for microsoft to keep the play services Microsoft can't do a lot of the things you want to improve Android without dethroning Google Play Services. So very much of the "real" Android OS today is closed source and in "Play Services". That's why Amazon and Samsung (and Cyanogen and its successors like LineageOS and…) have invested so much money into failures at this point! Android isn't an open source OS. It's a proprietary OS with an open source "crust". 1) The Android Java VM is tied up in lawsuit settlements between Google and Oracle at this point. Even Google likely can't replace it without repercussions or follow up lawsuits. This seems a large part of why Dart seems so important to Flutter and Fuchsia and what have you. (Plus Sun forbid Microsoft from ever touching Java again back in the 90s.) 2) Microsoft already sells/supports what was called Xamarin and is now called MAUI. They also seem to actively contribute to React Native. Most of the rest I cannot comment on because I'm not an Android user. As a former Windows Phone user, I feel Microsoft had an "ideal smartphone OS" and the market decided it couldn't support it and would rather Google be in charge of a "nowhere close to ideal smartphone OS".

I don't think I'm "missing" that point, but I do think you are missing mine: Amazon has tried to improve the Android ecosystem since day one, on the taking things at face value that Android was supposed to be an open platform for innovation, and instead has failed in just about every possible way. More than any other company, Amazon continues to prove that you cannot improve Android without Google's rubber stamp and that no one wants an AOSP-based phone without "Play Services" or Google's App Store. Amazon's App Store is still the next biggest Android App Store after Google's and it can barely be listed as an "Also Ran" on the scorecard way below Google's numbers. Samsung similarly has spend nearly as much effort trying to improve Android and seen all sorts of failures. They've proved that few care about AOSP hardware improvements if it doesn't have Google's rubber stamp. They've proved in their own attempts no one wants an AOSP-based phone without "Play Services" or Google's App Store. They've proved that you can't use AOSP certified hardware to bypass the cellphone carriers' extreme aversion to a Third option in the ecosystem and continue to fail at trying to bring Tizen phones to market (because the cell carriers don't care about AOSP, they care about "Android" TM, Google Style). What kind of "active improvement" can Microsoft bring to Android that Amazon and Samsung haven't already tried and failed at? What would be any sort of point in Microsoft investing in AOSP-based products when they have no easier time of selling them through today's cell carriers than they had with a proven Kernel and software stack that they own entirely? Especially without Google's complete consent and access to "Play Services" and the Google App Store moat, what can Microsoft possibly offer in Android that they couldn't better offer in "Windows Phone 11" that wouldn't also see the same extraordinary bad luck/worse market conditions than Windows Phone <= 10? (ETA: Especially all that as opposed to by the time Edge switched to Chromium there were already a half-dozen other browsers using Chromium as their base and also Microsoft had already contributed multiple improvements to Chromium for years. There's no "success stories" in "Open Source" Android. There's very few people running de-Gooogled Android successfully and no one has been able to market one successfully in stores. Microsoft themselves even contributed cash for some of the hard lessons of Cyanogen, Inc.'s funding for their eventual burnout.)

SemanticStrengh 4y ago
Yes dethroning the google play services is a hard goal so here I'm mostly advocating for microsoft to keep the play services (and propose at the same time a side store to reduce paid/subscription apps costs). BTW any idea why the android tax doesn't apply to netflix? > What kind of "active improvement" can Microsoft bring to Android that Amazon and Samsung haven't already tried and failed at? A lot.. 1) the android Java VM is dogshit and abandonware, using openjdk would bring support for modern java, significantly improve performance on key workloads (e.g. ZGC sub 1ms pauses for android gaming..) and have a different impact of energy consumption. Those are 3 disruptives dimensions where microsoft can differentiate. 2) bring support for other programming languages would bring a competitive advantage vs the java only apps. 3) have an up to date linux kernel... Also properly finetuned like the Clear linux distro AKA disruptive perf 4) at the OS level there are many ways to improve the experience e.g. ships by default with a browser that has extensions support (such as Kiwi browser). Prebundle a power user extension pack (wikipedia link preview, tab search, etc) generally propose at installation time to optin for expert chosen apps that improve the experience (swiftkey, Tree of life, pomodoros, a notion like note taking app, etc). Moreover the playstore is filled with crappy app, there should be a default app that curate them and provide meaningful recommendations instead of letting users navigate that ocean of garbage in search of the hidden pearl. fix the many ergonomic nonsense failures (e.g ability to quickly set app, phone and alarm volume in any context). Backport many ideas found only in iphones. Correct absurdities such as Bluetooth profiles with mics not allowing spatial audio. also my lack of disk space force me to delete apps. Fine but how can't my O.S keep track of my deleted apps so that I don't have to remember their names to reinstall them.. I'm just someone who put 5minutes thinking about how to differentiate and alleviate pain points from Android, now imagine what a team of experts in user experience, paid full time could achieve in specifying the ideal smartphone O.S
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  > Yes dethroning the google play services is a hard goal so here I'm mostly advocating for microsoft to keep the play services Microsoft can't do a lot of the things you want to improve Android without dethroning Google Play Services. So very much of the "real" Android OS today is closed source and in "Play Services". That's why Amazon and Samsung (and Cyanogen and its successors like LineageOS and…) have invested so much money into failures at this point! Android isn't an open source OS. It's a proprietary OS with an open source "crust". 1) The Android Java VM is tied up in lawsuit settlements between Google and Oracle at this point. Even Google likely can't replace it without repercussions or follow up lawsuits. This seems a large part of why Dart seems so important to Flutter and Fuchsia and what have you. (Plus Sun forbid Microsoft from ever touching Java again back in the 90s.) 2) Microsoft already sells/supports what was called Xamarin and is now called MAUI. They also seem to actively contribute to React Native. Most of the rest I cannot comment on because I'm not an Android user. As a former Windows Phone user, I feel Microsoft had an "ideal smartphone OS" and the market decided it couldn't support it and would rather Google be in charge of a "nowhere close to ideal smartphone OS".