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If we want a free and open internet, why is the current web designed to let server owners control our experience? This leads to accessibility fails like the in

by efitz 4y ago

If we want a free and open internet, why is the current web designed to let server owners control our experience? This leads to accessibility fails like the inability for visually challenged people to control font size or contrast, but also leads to lots of other bad effects, like the fact that my browser gets more and more bloated every year and essentially has become a tool to let other people run programs (javascript and wasm) on my computer, and display content that they want (ads, etc.) rather than content that I want. I really want an internet where servers provide structured content, but where I control my user experience.

krapp 4y ago
>If we want a free and open internet, why is the current web designed to let server owners control our experience? Because server owners have the freedom to publish whatever they like (within the bounds of the law) and design their sites however they wish. An internet on which servers are only allowed to provide "structured content" would be significantly less free and open. You may be interested in the Gemini Protocol[0], on which sites are built according to that general principle. [0]https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ https://gemini.circumlunar.space/
- barnabee 4y ago
  They can send whatever data they like but they have no right of control over what I do with it or how it’s rendered. Browsers would be better if they prioritised user preferences over website designers.
  - krapp 4y ago
    >Browsers would be better if they prioritised user preferences over website designers. The vast majority of users would prefer not to have to write an entire layout and stylesheet for each site they visit, nor would they consider having all sites conform to a single layout or style to be of any value. It's only very small minority of people (probably exclusive to HN) who would prefer the web was nothing more than JSON or raw bitstreams. But again - geminispace works the way you want. Gemtext doesn't use stylesheets and only has very basic markup. Everything is dictated and controlled by the browser. And the protocol is specifically designed such that writing a client for it is easy.
    - cptskippy 4y ago
      > The vast majority of users would prefer not to have to write an entire layout and stylesheet for each site they visit This seems so obvious and yet so many technical people miss this entirely. Most people most of the time just want a solution, they don't want the tools to solve their problem on their own terms. Even if sites just spat out data sets in JSON, there'd still be someone bitching it wasn't in XML/CSV/whatever.
    - barnabee 4y ago
      > The vast majority of users would prefer not to have to write an entire layout and stylesheet for each site they visit I don’t think this would be a reasonable way to put user preferences ahead of website owners/designers, this seems more like replacing the web with something else entirely. What I am taking about is not requiring users to be more technical or do more work, precisely the opposite. Make their lives as easy as possible, and design the browser from the perspective that the user is king/queen, and you literally don’t give a shit about the web designer or their business model. If what they want the site to do is incompatible with maximising user happiness, tough luck, the browser should ignore their code or markup. Good examples of features (some) browsers incorporate which do some of the job without requiring technical knowledge, most of which should IMO be on by default: - preventing autoplay of videos and audio - the flag to force enable Zoom - reader mode - blocking ads and or trackers - etc. I’d love to see much more of it, and enabled by default.
danuker 4y ago
> why is the current web designed to let server owners control our experience? Because the most popular web browsers ARE created by some of the largest server owners (i.e. Google). To address this, make sure your site works with simple browsers, like Links and lynx.

by efitz 4y ago

krapp 4y ago

>If we want a free and open internet, why is the current web designed to let server owners control our experience? Because server owners have the freedom to publish whatever they like (within the bounds of the law) and design their sites however they wish. An internet on which servers are only allowed to provide "structured content" would be significantly less free and open. You may be interested in the Gemini Protocol[0], on which sites are built according to that general principle. [0]https://gemini.circumlunar.space/ https://gemini.circumlunar.space/

barnabee 4y ago
They can send whatever data they like but they have no right of control over what I do with it or how it’s rendered. Browsers would be better if they prioritised user preferences over website designers.
- krapp 4y ago
  >Browsers would be better if they prioritised user preferences over website designers. The vast majority of users would prefer not to have to write an entire layout and stylesheet for each site they visit, nor would they consider having all sites conform to a single layout or style to be of any value. It's only very small minority of people (probably exclusive to HN) who would prefer the web was nothing more than JSON or raw bitstreams. But again - geminispace works the way you want. Gemtext doesn't use stylesheets and only has very basic markup. Everything is dictated and controlled by the browser. And the protocol is specifically designed such that writing a client for it is easy.
  - cptskippy 4y ago
    > The vast majority of users would prefer not to have to write an entire layout and stylesheet for each site they visit This seems so obvious and yet so many technical people miss this entirely. Most people most of the time just want a solution, they don't want the tools to solve their problem on their own terms. Even if sites just spat out data sets in JSON, there'd still be someone bitching it wasn't in XML/CSV/whatever.
  - barnabee 4y ago
    > The vast majority of users would prefer not to have to write an entire layout and stylesheet for each site they visit I don’t think this would be a reasonable way to put user preferences ahead of website owners/designers, this seems more like replacing the web with something else entirely. What I am taking about is not requiring users to be more technical or do more work, precisely the opposite. Make their lives as easy as possible, and design the browser from the perspective that the user is king/queen, and you literally don’t give a shit about the web designer or their business model. If what they want the site to do is incompatible with maximising user happiness, tough luck, the browser should ignore their code or markup. Good examples of features (some) browsers incorporate which do some of the job without requiring technical knowledge, most of which should IMO be on by default: - preventing autoplay of videos and audio - the flag to force enable Zoom - reader mode - blocking ads and or trackers - etc. I’d love to see much more of it, and enabled by default.

danuker 4y ago

> why is the current web designed to let server owners control our experience? Because the most popular web browsers ARE created by some of the largest server owners (i.e. Google). To address this, make sure your site works with simple browsers, like Links and lynx.