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Repeal the Foreign Dredge Act of 1906

36 points by Amorymeltzer 4y ago

midislack 4y ago
This act is important, we need to keep our ports working with Americans. Dubai's already tried to replace longshoremen with cheap foreign labor.
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  ...but how would repealing this act remove US longshoremen?
  - midislack 4y ago
    Foreign owned ports would like to remove all American workers.
    - theptip 4y ago
      How does allowing Dutch companies to dredge US ports remove longshoremen in the US? If anything this should help them by opening up more ports to deeper draught shipping vessels that currently cannot dock because of the backlog/expense of dredging projects, thus adding more work on the docks.
      - midislack 4y ago
        It's not just longshoremen they wish to remove. So far that hasn't worked but it demonstrates a trend, foreign owned ports really want to eliminate the US worker / vessel requirement. It shows that their aim isn't just to remove some Americans from working these ports, but any and all. That's all. It just illustrates my point, which is that over time these foreign owned ports want to entirely take over the operations and maintenance and staffing of the ports.
        EdwardDiego 4y ago
        Sure, but again, how would a Dutch dredging company coming in for a dredging project impact longshoremen? I'm assuming that dredging isn't needed that often in US ports.
        midislack 4y ago
        Foot in the door to replace them.
        EdwardDiego 4y ago
        ...foot in the door how? You've yet to describe a single mechanism. Dubai replacing locals with foreigners is specific to Dubai and Dubai law, and what the government of Dubai is aiming to do. Unless you can show why and how it can be extrapolated to every other port in every other jurisdiction. In my country, cargo shipping lines owned here are long obsolete, as coastal shipping was replaced by railway and road, and for international freight, overseas shipping lines had the capital to float the larger ships that were the result of containerisation, and the existing port contracts with ports that are dispatching to us. For large scale dredging operations, we bring in the big specialist vessels. (We have smaller dredges for the smaller ports that are based around a river mouth, as they need to dredge far more often, but at a far smaller scale). Likewise, when it's time to move an offshore natural gas platform, we bring in the specialised vessels from overseas. But, all of our port workers are still from our country - just because the ships are foreign owned doesn't mean we have to change all of our employment laws to allow foreign companies to operate our ports. If Dubai did that, then that's because Dubai chose to. Likewise, the USA could choose to do that also, whether or not a dredge was run by the Dutch. You're afraid of globalisation, and that's fine, it's had positives in some areas, but definite negatives in others, but you're focused on the wrong thing here - it's not foreign dredges, it's American lawmakers who are drinking deep of the neoliberal KoolAid.
        midislack 4y ago
        Mechanism is illustrated in the link I originally replied to at the top of this page. Foot in the door mechanism, slippery slope, one thing leads to another. And while I’m not afraid of globalism, I do scorn and denigrate it. Bully it.
ldiracdelta 4y ago
"There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”
- theptip 4y ago
  Chesterton’s Fence, in case anyone is wondering.
  - credit_guy 4y ago
    Chesterton's Fence should be held in disrepute in this day and age, at least among people familiar with software. The majority of said software being bloated because of an instinctive application of Chesterton's Fence.
    - Georgelemental 4y ago
      Have you never suffered an ill-advised redesign that takes away all the features you needed because "it's cleaner"? Lucky you
      - credit_guy 4y ago
        80% of migrations out there (warning: made up statistic) happen because the system became too complex to maintain, and most of that complexity comes from people implicitly invoking Chesterton’s fence in one way or another, many, many times. Yes, there are cases where it’s wise to follow Chesterton’s advice. But many more cases where that’s just lazyness disguised as wisdom.
        smokey_circles 4y ago
cafard 4y ago
If we were in the Netherlands or in the Persian Gulf, there would be several nations close enough that one's dredges could practically dredge in another's waters without being being too far from home. The Chesapeake Bay is a considerable distance from any foreign country. What is the transit time of a dredge coming from Nova Scotia or Jamaica to the Chesapeake Bay?

36 points by Amorymeltzer 4y ago

This act is important, we need to keep our ports working with Americans. Dubai's already tried to replace longshoremen with cheap foreign labor.

EdwardDiego 4y ago
...but how would repealing this act remove US longshoremen?
- midislack 4y ago
  Foreign owned ports would like to remove all American workers.
  - theptip 4y ago
    How does allowing Dutch companies to dredge US ports remove longshoremen in the US? If anything this should help them by opening up more ports to deeper draught shipping vessels that currently cannot dock because of the backlog/expense of dredging projects, thus adding more work on the docks.
    - midislack 4y ago
      It's not just longshoremen they wish to remove. So far that hasn't worked but it demonstrates a trend, foreign owned ports really want to eliminate the US worker / vessel requirement. It shows that their aim isn't just to remove some Americans from working these ports, but any and all. That's all. It just illustrates my point, which is that over time these foreign owned ports want to entirely take over the operations and maintenance and staffing of the ports.
      - EdwardDiego 4y ago
        Sure, but again, how would a Dutch dredging company coming in for a dredging project impact longshoremen? I'm assuming that dredging isn't needed that often in US ports.
        midislack 4y ago
        Foot in the door to replace them.
        EdwardDiego 4y ago
        ...foot in the door how? You've yet to describe a single mechanism. Dubai replacing locals with foreigners is specific to Dubai and Dubai law, and what the government of Dubai is aiming to do. Unless you can show why and how it can be extrapolated to every other port in every other jurisdiction. In my country, cargo shipping lines owned here are long obsolete, as coastal shipping was replaced by railway and road, and for international freight, overseas shipping lines had the capital to float the larger ships that were the result of containerisation, and the existing port contracts with ports that are dispatching to us. For large scale dredging operations, we bring in the big specialist vessels. (We have smaller dredges for the smaller ports that are based around a river mouth, as they need to dredge far more often, but at a far smaller scale). Likewise, when it's time to move an offshore natural gas platform, we bring in the specialised vessels from overseas. But, all of our port workers are still from our country - just because the ships are foreign owned doesn't mean we have to change all of our employment laws to allow foreign companies to operate our ports. If Dubai did that, then that's because Dubai chose to. Likewise, the USA could choose to do that also, whether or not a dredge was run by the Dutch. You're afraid of globalisation, and that's fine, it's had positives in some areas, but definite negatives in others, but you're focused on the wrong thing here - it's not foreign dredges, it's American lawmakers who are drinking deep of the neoliberal KoolAid.
        midislack 4y ago
        Mechanism is illustrated in the link I originally replied to at the top of this page. Foot in the door mechanism, slippery slope, one thing leads to another. And while I’m not afraid of globalism, I do scorn and denigrate it. Bully it.

ldiracdelta 4y ago

"There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”

theptip 4y ago
Chesterton’s Fence, in case anyone is wondering.
- credit_guy 4y ago
  Chesterton's Fence should be held in disrepute in this day and age, at least among people familiar with software. The majority of said software being bloated because of an instinctive application of Chesterton's Fence.
  - Georgelemental 4y ago
    Have you never suffered an ill-advised redesign that takes away all the features you needed because "it's cleaner"? Lucky you
    - credit_guy 4y ago
      80% of migrations out there (warning: made up statistic) happen because the system became too complex to maintain, and most of that complexity comes from people implicitly invoking Chesterton’s fence in one way or another, many, many times. Yes, there are cases where it’s wise to follow Chesterton’s advice. But many more cases where that’s just lazyness disguised as wisdom.
      - smokey_circles 4y ago

cafard 4y ago

If we were in the Netherlands or in the Persian Gulf, there would be several nations close enough that one's dredges could practically dredge in another's waters without being being too far from home. The Chesapeake Bay is a considerable distance from any foreign country. What is the transit time of a dredge coming from Nova Scotia or Jamaica to the Chesapeake Bay?