5 ms·

I don't think this is reality. There might be some truth to it, but in my opinion the real problem is the platform itself. I'm going to blame it on browsers an

I don't think this is reality. There might be some truth to it, but in my opinion the real problem is the platform itself. I'm going to blame it on browsers and web standards. The web was not designed with accessibility as default. Instead it is a significant amount of work to make things accessible. Every project incurs huge cost in order to achieve it. I truly believe from an accessibility standpoint the web is simply broken. So sure, blame it on young programmers. But that's a poor excuse for where we are at today in my humble opinion.

akersten 5y ago
> The web was not designed with accessibility as default. Instead it is a significant amount of work to make things accessible. Every project incurs huge cost in order to achieve it. This has got to be satire right? HTML is accessible by default, it's your horrible JS SPA frameworks that break thid. See [0] [0]: https://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ https://motherfuckingwebsite.com/
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  For my day job I put a lot of effort into making an SPA accessible but it is absolutely important to the business because our customers demand it. I haven't perceived maintaining accessibility to be a big burden in the long term. Interestingly the accessibility project forced me to raise my game on CSS/HTML, graphic design, etc. and probably had a bigger impact on my side projects than it did on my work.
  - nightski 5y ago
    I put in this work as well. It's not about "burden" but cost. Clearly there is a cost here (your time). I don't mind spending the time, but that doesn't mean it costs nothing. Now multiply this times every web app in existence and the cost is quite large. A lot of this could be avoided with a better platform.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jraph 5y ago
What? It seems to me the web is accessible by default. Write a plain old HTML page and everybody should be able to read it (assuming they have a computer to open it or a printed version). People go out of their ways to mess this up by using fancy colors, fancy web fonts, messed up JS (frameworks), non standard components because it's cooler, disabling outlines, and so on. Do you have examples where the Web is not accessible by default, apart from the by default unlimited line width which is easily fixable with one line of CSS? Sure you need to use the right markup for the right things (and, no, <div> is usually not the right element for building a button or writing a paragraph, there are dedicated tags for those) but I can't see a way to avoid this.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  Yeah I agree. A plain old web page is rarely a problem. Ctrl-plus-plus-plus-plus however many times I need it, and I'm good. It's always 'modern' web pages that insist on fighting me.
  - nightski 5y ago
    We need to admit that "modern" web pages are a thing. If we keep ignoring most of the web because "they are doing it wrong" then accessibility will never be solved.
    - jraph 5y ago
      It seems to me you can build quite complex things that will be accessible by default with the web platform. IF don't fight it and if you respect semantics and progressive enhancement / beautiful degradation. You get so much by default: legible colors and font sizes, tabbed page navigation, alt texts, clickable labels, zoomable interface... When you embrace the platform and its spirit, you get accessible results quite easily. But not a lot of people seem to embrace it. Many people seem to think "what to do for what I want to see" instead of "what to do for what I want to mean", and you lose if you do this. You need to get your meaning right and then decorate it carefully. You should not paint first. But that's probably not a web-specific issue. What's more, building accessible things may make you gain time, by having a robust basis. It's not always a cost.

akersten 5y ago

> The web was not designed with accessibility as default. Instead it is a significant amount of work to make things accessible. Every project incurs huge cost in order to achieve it. This has got to be satire right? HTML is accessible by default, it's your horrible JS SPA frameworks that break thid. See [0] [0]: https://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ https://motherfuckingwebsite.com/

PaulHoule 5y ago
For my day job I put a lot of effort into making an SPA accessible but it is absolutely important to the business because our customers demand it. I haven't perceived maintaining accessibility to be a big burden in the long term. Interestingly the accessibility project forced me to raise my game on CSS/HTML, graphic design, etc. and probably had a bigger impact on my side projects than it did on my work.
- nightski 5y ago
  I put in this work as well. It's not about "burden" but cost. Clearly there is a cost here (your time). I don't mind spending the time, but that doesn't mean it costs nothing. Now multiply this times every web app in existence and the cost is quite large. A lot of this could be avoided with a better platform.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

jraph 5y ago

What? It seems to me the web is accessible by default. Write a plain old HTML page and everybody should be able to read it (assuming they have a computer to open it or a printed version). People go out of their ways to mess this up by using fancy colors, fancy web fonts, messed up JS (frameworks), non standard components because it's cooler, disabling outlines, and so on. Do you have examples where the Web is not accessible by default, apart from the by default unlimited line width which is easily fixable with one line of CSS? Sure you need to use the right markup for the right things (and, no, <div> is usually not the right element for building a button or writing a paragraph, there are dedicated tags for those) but I can't see a way to avoid this.

rootusrootus 5y ago
Yeah I agree. A plain old web page is rarely a problem. Ctrl-plus-plus-plus-plus however many times I need it, and I'm good. It's always 'modern' web pages that insist on fighting me.
- nightski 5y ago
  We need to admit that "modern" web pages are a thing. If we keep ignoring most of the web because "they are doing it wrong" then accessibility will never be solved.
  - jraph 5y ago
    It seems to me you can build quite complex things that will be accessible by default with the web platform. IF don't fight it and if you respect semantics and progressive enhancement / beautiful degradation. You get so much by default: legible colors and font sizes, tabbed page navigation, alt texts, clickable labels, zoomable interface... When you embrace the platform and its spirit, you get accessible results quite easily. But not a lot of people seem to embrace it. Many people seem to think "what to do for what I want to see" instead of "what to do for what I want to mean", and you lose if you do this. You need to get your meaning right and then decorate it carefully. You should not paint first. But that's probably not a web-specific issue. What's more, building accessible things may make you gain time, by having a robust basis. It's not always a cost.