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This announcement isn't about that and neither provider is asking to sync your private key. In fact the opposite is true: with FIDO2, you're in much greater con

This announcement isn't about that and neither provider is asking to sync your private key. In fact the opposite is true: with FIDO2, you're in much greater control of your account security because authentication creds are now on a hardware token versus as bearer credentials you type and an adversary can steal and replay. Many of us believe we're very good at protecting our passwords, but this isn't true in reality and FIDO2/U2F standards objectively make accounts more secure precisely because they remove humans from the equation.

throwaway52022 4y ago
Except it kind of is - the way I read this is "Apple/Google will turn your phone into a hardware FIDO token, but will use iCloud/whatever to reduce the huge painpoint of having more than one hardware token and keeping them all in sync" I really love the idea of FIDO and making sure that my authenticator only authenticates to sites that I've approved, but having multiple keys right now is a huge pain, but I'm not excited about "just sign up for Apple and that pain goes away" because I sure as hell don't trust Apple not to cause me pain in the future.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Your average user is more concerned about losing their password than they are about authenticator sovereignty. Moving towards cryptographic primitives for auth versus shared secrets is a net benefit versus current state. > but having multiple keys right now is a huge pain, but I'm not excited about "just sign up for Apple and that pain goes away" because I sure as hell don't trust Apple not to cause me pain in the future. Compromise is necessary, and probably a bit of regulation from government to enforce good outcomes from exception handling. Passkeys need to be stored and managed somehow, and your average user does not want to do that, just like they don't want to run their own mail server, syncthing instance, or mastodon instance. EDIT: (HN throttling, can't reply) @signal11 You can already be locked out of all of those accounts without recourse.
  - signal11 4y ago
    > Your average user is more concerned about losing their password than they are about authenticator sovereignty Right up to the point when they’re locked out from their Google, iCloud or Facebook accounts with little recourse or appeal. And then they discover it’s not just Google, a whole host of other services don’t work. And it does happen, and I for one don’t want to wait for legislation to mitigate this blatant attempt at yet more centralisation. Better to not centralise in the first place.
    - zozbot234 4y ago
      Many authenticator apps allow you to extract and back up the private key yourself, with no involvement of any 3rd party. But it's a totally optional workflow and you're never asked for that private key while authenticating, so the mass phishing and spear-phishing attacks seen with passwords are still infeasible.
- judge2020 4y ago
  This is a net benefit over synced passwords, which everyone already trusts them to do. You haven't been forced to use a (syncing) password manager over a physical password book in the past, and you won't be forced to use Passkeys[0] or the Android equivalent in the future; hardware security keys will still be usable since this announcement is about embracing the FIDO Standard. 0: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/authenticationservices/public-private_key_authentication/supporting_passkeys https://developer.apple.com/documentation/authenticationserv...
mbrubeck 4y ago
> neither provider is asking to sync your private key. Yes, they are. According to the white paper linked in the press release: Just like password managers do with passwords, the underlying OS platform will “sync” the cryptographic keys that belong to a FIDO credential from device to device. https://media.fidoalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/How-FIDO-Addresses-a-Full-Range-of-Use-Cases.pdf https://media.fidoalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Ho... Ars Technica had a better write-up of these announcements back in March: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/03/a-big-bet-to-kill-the-password-for-good/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/03/a-big...
eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- epistasis 4y ago
  Not at all, because before anybody could take your account away from you if you did not accurately compare two visual strings, potentially in Unicode. By replacing that operation, which humans can not perform reliably, with computer operations, users are no longer subject to others taking control of their account. It is wonderful.
dwaite 4y ago
This announcement is partially about the platform-integrated authenticators being made into 'virtual' authenticators backed by a platform vendor-specific cloud ecosystem. So for example, a credential registered on an iPhone may be synchronized over iCloud Keychain to work to log in my Mac via TouchID. This is something which has always been as part of the model - an authenticator is just an abstract thing that represents an authentication factor, generates keys for a particular use, and doesn't share private keys outside its boundaries. This announcement possibly marks a transition where sites supporting Web Authentication (with a bring-your-own-authenticator model) will go from seeing 90%+ hardware-bound authenticators to seeing 90%+ platform-integrated, synchronizing authenticators. Bundled into that prediction is a hope that this (and other proposed changes) will lead to a 10x increase in adoption.

throwaway52022 4y ago

Except it kind of is - the way I read this is "Apple/Google will turn your phone into a hardware FIDO token, but will use iCloud/whatever to reduce the huge painpoint of having more than one hardware token and keeping them all in sync" I really love the idea of FIDO and making sure that my authenticator only authenticates to sites that I've approved, but having multiple keys right now is a huge pain, but I'm not excited about "just sign up for Apple and that pain goes away" because I sure as hell don't trust Apple not to cause me pain in the future.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Your average user is more concerned about losing their password than they are about authenticator sovereignty. Moving towards cryptographic primitives for auth versus shared secrets is a net benefit versus current state. > but having multiple keys right now is a huge pain, but I'm not excited about "just sign up for Apple and that pain goes away" because I sure as hell don't trust Apple not to cause me pain in the future. Compromise is necessary, and probably a bit of regulation from government to enforce good outcomes from exception handling. Passkeys need to be stored and managed somehow, and your average user does not want to do that, just like they don't want to run their own mail server, syncthing instance, or mastodon instance. EDIT: (HN throttling, can't reply) @signal11 You can already be locked out of all of those accounts without recourse.
- signal11 4y ago
  > Your average user is more concerned about losing their password than they are about authenticator sovereignty Right up to the point when they’re locked out from their Google, iCloud or Facebook accounts with little recourse or appeal. And then they discover it’s not just Google, a whole host of other services don’t work. And it does happen, and I for one don’t want to wait for legislation to mitigate this blatant attempt at yet more centralisation. Better to not centralise in the first place.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    Many authenticator apps allow you to extract and back up the private key yourself, with no involvement of any 3rd party. But it's a totally optional workflow and you're never asked for that private key while authenticating, so the mass phishing and spear-phishing attacks seen with passwords are still infeasible.
judge2020 4y ago
This is a net benefit over synced passwords, which everyone already trusts them to do. You haven't been forced to use a (syncing) password manager over a physical password book in the past, and you won't be forced to use Passkeys[0] or the Android equivalent in the future; hardware security keys will still be usable since this announcement is about embracing the FIDO Standard. 0: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/authenticationservices/public-private_key_authentication/supporting_passkeys https://developer.apple.com/documentation/authenticationserv...

mbrubeck 4y ago

> neither provider is asking to sync your private key. Yes, they are. According to the white paper linked in the press release: Just like password managers do with passwords, the underlying OS platform will “sync” the cryptographic keys that belong to a FIDO credential from device to device. https://media.fidoalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/How-FIDO-Addresses-a-Full-Range-of-Use-Cases.pdf https://media.fidoalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Ho... Ars Technica had a better write-up of these announcements back in March: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/03/a-big-bet-to-kill-the-password-for-good/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/03/a-big...

eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
epistasis 4y ago
Not at all, because before anybody could take your account away from you if you did not accurately compare two visual strings, potentially in Unicode. By replacing that operation, which humans can not perform reliably, with computer operations, users are no longer subject to others taking control of their account. It is wonderful.

dwaite 4y ago

This announcement is partially about the platform-integrated authenticators being made into 'virtual' authenticators backed by a platform vendor-specific cloud ecosystem. So for example, a credential registered on an iPhone may be synchronized over iCloud Keychain to work to log in my Mac via TouchID. This is something which has always been as part of the model - an authenticator is just an abstract thing that represents an authentication factor, generates keys for a particular use, and doesn't share private keys outside its boundaries. This announcement possibly marks a transition where sites supporting Web Authentication (with a bring-your-own-authenticator model) will go from seeing 90%+ hardware-bound authenticators to seeing 90%+ platform-integrated, synchronizing authenticators. Bundled into that prediction is a hope that this (and other proposed changes) will lead to a 10x increase in adoption.