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Of course, a candidate who doesn't want to communicate with women, or can't accept a female senior, no-one wants that. But "not making eye contact" is possibly

Of course, a candidate who doesn't want to communicate with women, or can't accept a female senior, no-one wants that. But "not making eye contact" is possibly not a good way to infer that. Some years ago there was a study as to why UK magistrates gave heavier sentences to black kids rather than white. One thing that came up was that black kids tended to look to the ground, to not make eye-contact, when being questioned: the magistrates saw this as "guilty looking" whereas it is just an Afro-Caribbean cultural thing, making eye contact with an elder is considered disrespectful to many in that community.

frumiousirc 5y ago
The indomitable Naomi Wu dug at exactly this point in the thread. She got OP to clarify that by typing "not making eye contact" he did not mean "not making eye contact" but meant "communicating with". I'll leave the irony of this unstated.
- a_shovel 5y ago
  He didn't, though, he clarified that he meant making eye contact with the man but not the woman.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  Apparently when he said "Doesn't make eye contact with or communicate with" he meant "doesn't communicate with or communicate with"
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    “Doesn’t do X or Y” has colloquial meaning of “Does neither X nor Y”. In cases of X being subset of Y or otherwise lower degree it means “Doesn’t do Y, e.g. X” You’ll see this in common speech “My husband doesn’t do the dishes or clean up at all”, “he doesn’t reply to emails or update anything in JIRA”, etc. Pretty standard language structure in English. Odd that people are having trouble.
    - phendrenad2 5y ago
      Except he didn't say "doesn't do X or Y" he said "is unwilling to X or Y", which breaks the colloquial defense and makes it questionable what he meant. (And I don't fully trust further explanations by someone under this kind of pressure)
      - renewiltord 5y ago
        Do you interpret "unwilling to X or Y" as "unwilling to X" or "unwilling to Y"? I interpret it as "unwilling to X" and "unwilling to Y". For instance, "my husband is unwilling to take care of the twins or take the dog to day-care" means the husband is not going to either of those things, i.e. the speaker wishes for the husband to do one of these two things and the husband is doing neither. Likewise, "unwilling to make eye contact or communicate" means "is not willing to either make eye contact" and "is not willing to communicate". In fact, it feels very natural to me to take that interpretation. But I am completely open to the idea that this is not the case in other people's English. I don't know the OP guy, so there's no real skin in the game for me, but I really think he has the same meaning as me here.
        phendrenad2 5y ago
        My initial take was that "unwilling to make eye contact or acknowledge" meant either/or as opposed to neither/nor. But I think there's also a possibility that I'm wrong. But can we know for sure? I feel that we have to try to interpret the first tweet as a standalone thing, because the followup explanations happened after he started getting called out for what is, in theory, illegal.
        whynaut 5y ago
        > My initial take was that "unwilling to make eye contact or acknowledge" meant either/or What would that even mean in practice though. It’s like a pointless thing to write.
- whynaut 5y ago
  The indomitable frumiousirc is incredibly incorrect.
BeefWellington 5y ago
What you're discussing is tangibly different than what's described in the thread though. Refusing to look the lone woman present in the eye while giving interview answers -- even for a primary interviewer who is a woman -- while making good eye contact with others present isn't the same as looking down/away from a male judge or magistrate in a court setting.
- karmakaze 5y ago
  This could be bias against those who are uncomfortable making eye contact with women. Is eye contact a requirement for communication? Certainly it helps but now with remote work, video meetings, and lots of async written artifacts, I find it much less so.
  - mrguyorama 5y ago
    "Occasionally make eye contact with women" should probably be a reasonable expectation for professional employees, who should be expected to work well with diverse (not the identity politics meaning of that word) teams.
    - dolni 5y ago
      Does being shy around women make you a bad person? Does being uncomfortable around people who are different than you make you a bad person? It's one thing if someone outright ignores an interviewer (that is hugely disrespectful). It's entirely another if someone is forcing their values on someone else over something as trivial as eye contact. This whole thing sounds hand-wavy and virtue-signally to me. And in a bad way.
      - fknorangesite 5y ago
        > Does being shy around women make you a bad person? Does being uncomfortable around people who are different than you make you a bad person? It may not make you a bad person, but it would probably make you a bad hire. > It's one thing if someone outright ignores an interviewer (that is hugely disrespectful). If you read the entire twitter thread, you will see that this is exactly what is being discussed. And if you haven't seen this behaviour in person before, you haven't been paying attention.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rrauenza 5y ago
FWIW, later he clarified: > Spelling it out for the few people in replies wanting to misunderstand what I am saying: > We rejected candidates who refused to communicate w female interviewers when they asked questions or tried to communicate. They’d only respond to the guy, who did not initiate the comms! and > When I wrote "did not make eye contact" I meant "only made eye contact with the man, refused to do so with the woman" reflecting on how the woman was ignored. Not just about eye contact: was about refusing to communicate in any way with the woman: but not the man.

frumiousirc 5y ago

The indomitable Naomi Wu dug at exactly this point in the thread. She got OP to clarify that by typing "not making eye contact" he did not mean "not making eye contact" but meant "communicating with". I'll leave the irony of this unstated.

a_shovel 5y ago
He didn't, though, he clarified that he meant making eye contact with the man but not the woman.
phendrenad2 5y ago
Apparently when he said "Doesn't make eye contact with or communicate with" he meant "doesn't communicate with or communicate with"
- renewiltord 5y ago
  “Doesn’t do X or Y” has colloquial meaning of “Does neither X nor Y”. In cases of X being subset of Y or otherwise lower degree it means “Doesn’t do Y, e.g. X” You’ll see this in common speech “My husband doesn’t do the dishes or clean up at all”, “he doesn’t reply to emails or update anything in JIRA”, etc. Pretty standard language structure in English. Odd that people are having trouble.
  - phendrenad2 5y ago
    Except he didn't say "doesn't do X or Y" he said "is unwilling to X or Y", which breaks the colloquial defense and makes it questionable what he meant. (And I don't fully trust further explanations by someone under this kind of pressure)
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      Do you interpret "unwilling to X or Y" as "unwilling to X" or "unwilling to Y"? I interpret it as "unwilling to X" and "unwilling to Y". For instance, "my husband is unwilling to take care of the twins or take the dog to day-care" means the husband is not going to either of those things, i.e. the speaker wishes for the husband to do one of these two things and the husband is doing neither. Likewise, "unwilling to make eye contact or communicate" means "is not willing to either make eye contact" and "is not willing to communicate". In fact, it feels very natural to me to take that interpretation. But I am completely open to the idea that this is not the case in other people's English. I don't know the OP guy, so there's no real skin in the game for me, but I really think he has the same meaning as me here.
      - phendrenad2 5y ago
        My initial take was that "unwilling to make eye contact or acknowledge" meant either/or as opposed to neither/nor. But I think there's also a possibility that I'm wrong. But can we know for sure? I feel that we have to try to interpret the first tweet as a standalone thing, because the followup explanations happened after he started getting called out for what is, in theory, illegal.
        whynaut 5y ago
        > My initial take was that "unwilling to make eye contact or acknowledge" meant either/or What would that even mean in practice though. It’s like a pointless thing to write.
whynaut 5y ago
The indomitable frumiousirc is incredibly incorrect.

BeefWellington 5y ago

What you're discussing is tangibly different than what's described in the thread though. Refusing to look the lone woman present in the eye while giving interview answers -- even for a primary interviewer who is a woman -- while making good eye contact with others present isn't the same as looking down/away from a male judge or magistrate in a court setting.

karmakaze 5y ago
This could be bias against those who are uncomfortable making eye contact with women. Is eye contact a requirement for communication? Certainly it helps but now with remote work, video meetings, and lots of async written artifacts, I find it much less so.
- mrguyorama 5y ago
  "Occasionally make eye contact with women" should probably be a reasonable expectation for professional employees, who should be expected to work well with diverse (not the identity politics meaning of that word) teams.
  - dolni 5y ago
    Does being shy around women make you a bad person? Does being uncomfortable around people who are different than you make you a bad person? It's one thing if someone outright ignores an interviewer (that is hugely disrespectful). It's entirely another if someone is forcing their values on someone else over something as trivial as eye contact. This whole thing sounds hand-wavy and virtue-signally to me. And in a bad way.
    - fknorangesite 5y ago
      > Does being shy around women make you a bad person? Does being uncomfortable around people who are different than you make you a bad person? It may not make you a bad person, but it would probably make you a bad hire. > It's one thing if someone outright ignores an interviewer (that is hugely disrespectful). If you read the entire twitter thread, you will see that this is exactly what is being discussed. And if you haven't seen this behaviour in person before, you haven't been paying attention.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rrauenza 5y ago

FWIW, later he clarified: > Spelling it out for the few people in replies wanting to misunderstand what I am saying: > We rejected candidates who refused to communicate w female interviewers when they asked questions or tried to communicate. They’d only respond to the guy, who did not initiate the comms! and > When I wrote "did not make eye contact" I meant "only made eye contact with the man, refused to do so with the woman" reflecting on how the woman was ignored. Not just about eye contact: was about refusing to communicate in any way with the woman: but not the man.