7 ms·

Rejecting candidates unwilling to acknowledge female interviewers

35 points by drewg123 4y ago

jjgreen 4y ago
Of course, a candidate who doesn't want to communicate with women, or can't accept a female senior, no-one wants that. But "not making eye contact" is possibly not a good way to infer that. Some years ago there was a study as to why UK magistrates gave heavier sentences to black kids rather than white. One thing that came up was that black kids tended to look to the ground, to not make eye-contact, when being questioned: the magistrates saw this as "guilty looking" whereas it is just an Afro-Caribbean cultural thing, making eye contact with an elder is considered disrespectful to many in that community.
- frumiousirc 4y ago
  The indomitable Naomi Wu dug at exactly this point in the thread. She got OP to clarify that by typing "not making eye contact" he did not mean "not making eye contact" but meant "communicating with". I'll leave the irony of this unstated.
  - a_shovel 4y ago
    He didn't, though, he clarified that he meant making eye contact with the man but not the woman.
  - phendrenad2 4y ago
    Apparently when he said "Doesn't make eye contact with or communicate with" he meant "doesn't communicate with or communicate with"
    - renewiltord 4y ago
      “Doesn’t do X or Y” has colloquial meaning of “Does neither X nor Y”. In cases of X being subset of Y or otherwise lower degree it means “Doesn’t do Y, e.g. X” You’ll see this in common speech “My husband doesn’t do the dishes or clean up at all”, “he doesn’t reply to emails or update anything in JIRA”, etc. Pretty standard language structure in English. Odd that people are having trouble.
      - phendrenad2 4y ago
        Except he didn't say "doesn't do X or Y" he said "is unwilling to X or Y", which breaks the colloquial defense and makes it questionable what he meant. (And I don't fully trust further explanations by someone under this kind of pressure)
        renewiltord 4y ago
        Do you interpret "unwilling to X or Y" as "unwilling to X" or "unwilling to Y"? I interpret it as "unwilling to X" and "unwilling to Y". For instance, "my husband is unwilling to take care of the twins or take the dog to day-care" means the husband is not going to either of those things, i.e. the speaker wishes for the husband to do one of these two things and the husband is doing neither. Likewise, "unwilling to make eye contact or communicate" means "is not willing to either make eye contact" and "is not willing to communicate". In fact, it feels very natural to me to take that interpretation. But I am completely open to the idea that this is not the case in other people's English. I don't know the OP guy, so there's no real skin in the game for me, but I really think he has the same meaning as me here.
        phendrenad2 4y ago
        My initial take was that "unwilling to make eye contact or acknowledge" meant either/or as opposed to neither/nor. But I think there's also a possibility that I'm wrong. But can we know for sure? I feel that we have to try to interpret the first tweet as a standalone thing, because the followup explanations happened after he started getting called out for what is, in theory, illegal.
        whynaut 4y ago
        > My initial take was that "unwilling to make eye contact or acknowledge" meant either/or What would that even mean in practice though. It’s like a pointless thing to write.
  - whynaut 4y ago
    The indomitable frumiousirc is incredibly incorrect.
- BeefWellington 4y ago
  What you're discussing is tangibly different than what's described in the thread though. Refusing to look the lone woman present in the eye while giving interview answers -- even for a primary interviewer who is a woman -- while making good eye contact with others present isn't the same as looking down/away from a male judge or magistrate in a court setting.
  - karmakaze 4y ago
    This could be bias against those who are uncomfortable making eye contact with women. Is eye contact a requirement for communication? Certainly it helps but now with remote work, video meetings, and lots of async written artifacts, I find it much less so.
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      "Occasionally make eye contact with women" should probably be a reasonable expectation for professional employees, who should be expected to work well with diverse (not the identity politics meaning of that word) teams.
      - dolni 4y ago
        Does being shy around women make you a bad person? Does being uncomfortable around people who are different than you make you a bad person? It's one thing if someone outright ignores an interviewer (that is hugely disrespectful). It's entirely another if someone is forcing their values on someone else over something as trivial as eye contact. This whole thing sounds hand-wavy and virtue-signally to me. And in a bad way.
        fknorangesite 4y ago
        > Does being shy around women make you a bad person? Does being uncomfortable around people who are different than you make you a bad person? It may not make you a bad person, but it would probably make you a bad hire. > It's one thing if someone outright ignores an interviewer (that is hugely disrespectful). If you read the entire twitter thread, you will see that this is exactly what is being discussed. And if you haven't seen this behaviour in person before, you haven't been paying attention.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- rrauenza 4y ago
  FWIW, later he clarified: > Spelling it out for the few people in replies wanting to misunderstand what I am saying: > We rejected candidates who refused to communicate w female interviewers when they asked questions or tried to communicate. They’d only respond to the guy, who did not initiate the comms! and > When I wrote "did not make eye contact" I meant "only made eye contact with the man, refused to do so with the woman" reflecting on how the woman was ignored. Not just about eye contact: was about refusing to communicate in any way with the woman: but not the man.
5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
Why did the guy post this on twitter, doesn't he know the kind of reaction it will generate. Anyway, i think it's fair game to filter out people who ignore the person asking questions, that's pretty abnormal behaviour regardless of gender. No need to for a twitter shitstorm to make that point.
- liveoneggs 4y ago
  he thought it would be good social signalling?
- masterof0 4y ago
  I felt the same way, what a weird thing to tweet about. In all my years interviewing I have never seen anyone that wouldn't talk (or look at the eyes) of my female coworker when interviewing or elsewhere. I had female managers, directors and CTOs, and I don't recall an instance where the gender of the person were a problem. Looking at the person's twitter profile, he matches the type of those who think that having worked at FAANG or FAANG-like companies gives them some sort of extra credibility or something. I work and have worked at FAANGs and feel like if I have to write a short Bio for myself, the company I work for wouldn't make it there.
  - loriverkutya 4y ago
    I have, the interview ended fast.
  - notreallyserio 4y ago
    If you want my anecdote, I've seen it a lot. I'd suggest asking your managers, directors, CEOs if they've experienced it themselves -- I bet they have and that it happens all the time. Dismissing this as mere signaling (as others here have) is ironically almost as bad.
    - DoneWithAllThat 4y ago
      Because everyone has experienced being ignored in various settings before. Its a thing that happens regardless of sex or age or color. It doesn’t necessarily mean it was due to some *ism.
baisq 4y ago
- loriverkutya 4y ago
  I'm not sure how many interviews you have been, but all of my interviews started with introductions so it was always pretty clear which position they are holding in the company.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- a_shovel 4y ago
  Well, at least now you know you shouldn't assume that.
vmception 4y ago
I’ve had that happen to me in the C-Suite of my own companies, with vendors, partners, advisors Not exactly easy to screen them out, because you want their business! Annoying but I just remember “that’s what I hired this white guy with the ivy league pedigree for, atmosphere modeling” so the vendors have someone to make eye contact with It works, I do the same in every country. I’m not spending a single minute of time on “representation and diversity trends in South Korea” I just do the thing that most likely makes money, I don't treat the US differently. Save the causes for after you’re done trying to make money. Nice to know others have that experience.
- tragictrash 4y ago
  I've unknowingly been that guy before. Ended up giving that employer the finger on my way out. Good riddance. It works, but you're just pandering to dinosaurs.
  - vmception 4y ago
    Which guy. The one not making eye contact? The atmosphere model? The person not getting eye contact?
    - tragictrash 4y ago
      Atmosphere model, thanks def needed to clarify that one.
      - vmception 4y ago
        Yeah, good for you sticking up for yourself, my guy didn’t have other marketable skills and was also adequately tied to the value of their stake. Definitely true on how this behavior in my case was correlated to old people. The one about women being ignored probably has broader distribution.
a_shovel 4y ago
Actively filtering out sexists (, racists, etc.) from your hiring process is a practical necessity for any company. If your company will hire programmers who refuse to acknowledge that women can be technically skilled, imagine what the salespeople hired through this process are saying to female customers. It's only bad options, and one of the worst ones is "nothing".
MarkusWandel 4y ago
I'd have been toast. Not because I'm an evil chauvinist, but because I'm a typical geek who took half a lifetime to get comfortable with making eye contact with, actually pretty much anyone, but particularly women. But technically competent. Luckily I did get hired for that.
- liveoneggs 4y ago
  it's selecting for a specific "culture" and personality type https://genius.com/18702731/Pink-floyd-dogs/And-after-a-while-you-can-work-on-points-for-style-like-the-club-tie-and-the-firm-handshake-a-certain-look-in-the-eye-and-an-easy-smile-you-have-to-be-trusted-by-the-people-that-you-lie-to-so-that-when-they-turn-their-backs-on-you-youll-get-the-chance-to-put-the-knife-in https://genius.com/18702731/Pink-floyd-dogs/And-after-a-whil...
mc4ndr3 4y ago
I have trouble maintaining eye contact with anyone. Though I agree that our industry has a bad track record of gender equality and needs to improve.
- Boltgolt 4y ago
  The point is that these candidates were only looking at (and talking to) the man in the room. Not making eye contact at all is very different from only making eye contact with men and ignoring women
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
prepend 4y ago
It seems like a good idea to avoid hiring people who won’t talk with women. But it seems so unbelievable that this was a common problem as this is something I’ve never witnessed in probably hundreds of interviews that included women interviewers. I once worked for a company that had a Japanese client and the client wouldn’t interact with women leadership. This was back in the days when software was delivered on cd and they wouldn’t accept the cd from a woman. It really skeeved me out and I refused to be part of the ceremony.
- fknorangesite 4y ago
  > this is something I’ve never witnessed Ask the women in your life if they have.
  - prepend 4y ago
    Good suggestion, I should have been more thorough and said “this is something I’ve never witnessed and all of the women in my life I’ve talked with have not witnessed.” I’ll also add that it’s pretty easy to tell if someone is making eye contact or not. What I have witnessed, and been reported to me by women colleagues, is people being dismissive and redirecting to males. But they still looked them on the eye as they then directed the conversation away from women to men. It’s the eye contact thing that stood out to me as being odd.
- metalforever 4y ago
  Really? Because I am a woman tech interviewer at a large tech company and this happens to me a lot.
  - prepend 4y ago
    Really, I confirm my earlier observation. It’s interesting how people can have such different experiences but that’s part of what makes the world so wonderful. I’m sorry you’ve experienced this and wish you worked in the companies I did as I guess we were just lucky with our applicants. Or you were unlucky with yours.
closeparen 4y ago
I cannot imagine interviews and candidates ever being in the same room again. Even in a hybrid company, what are the odds that the whole panel came in on the same day? This seems pretty pot-stirring for academic history.
- metalforever 4y ago
  Just did one this week on site .
molbioguy 4y ago
To properly judge a candidate, don't assume, don't hide requirements; If you're willing to filter them out on it, tell them up front what you're judging them on. If they still can't or won't comply, your filter might be reasonable, otherwise it's unfair.
- fknorangesite 4y ago
  To be honest I wouldn't be hyped about someone who needs "treat men and women equally" explicitly spelled out for them.
  - molbioguy 4y ago
    I get your point, but as long as someone can act the way you demand, why does it matter whether they would have acted that way on their own. The public interface is what matters, not private thoughts, not cultural or personal influences. You're interviewing for a professional job, not a personal relationship.
moistly 4y ago
If you wish to test this out in real life, men, tag along with a woman who is shopping for a new car. I guarantee that the vast majority of salesmen will talk to you, not her. Doesn’t matter that she initiated the interaction with the salesman while you hung out in the background, doesn’t matter that she has said that it will be her car that she is paying for. As long as you are in conversational range, almost all the car salesmen will talk to you, not her. Source: been there, done that, repeatedly.

35 points by drewg123 4y ago

Of course, a candidate who doesn't want to communicate with women, or can't accept a female senior, no-one wants that. But "not making eye contact" is possibly not a good way to infer that. Some years ago there was a study as to why UK magistrates gave heavier sentences to black kids rather than white. One thing that came up was that black kids tended to look to the ground, to not make eye-contact, when being questioned: the magistrates saw this as "guilty looking" whereas it is just an Afro-Caribbean cultural thing, making eye contact with an elder is considered disrespectful to many in that community.

frumiousirc 4y ago
The indomitable Naomi Wu dug at exactly this point in the thread. She got OP to clarify that by typing "not making eye contact" he did not mean "not making eye contact" but meant "communicating with". I'll leave the irony of this unstated.
- a_shovel 4y ago
  He didn't, though, he clarified that he meant making eye contact with the man but not the woman.
- phendrenad2 4y ago
  Apparently when he said "Doesn't make eye contact with or communicate with" he meant "doesn't communicate with or communicate with"
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    “Doesn’t do X or Y” has colloquial meaning of “Does neither X nor Y”. In cases of X being subset of Y or otherwise lower degree it means “Doesn’t do Y, e.g. X” You’ll see this in common speech “My husband doesn’t do the dishes or clean up at all”, “he doesn’t reply to emails or update anything in JIRA”, etc. Pretty standard language structure in English. Odd that people are having trouble.
    - phendrenad2 4y ago
      Except he didn't say "doesn't do X or Y" he said "is unwilling to X or Y", which breaks the colloquial defense and makes it questionable what he meant. (And I don't fully trust further explanations by someone under this kind of pressure)
      - renewiltord 4y ago
        Do you interpret "unwilling to X or Y" as "unwilling to X" or "unwilling to Y"? I interpret it as "unwilling to X" and "unwilling to Y". For instance, "my husband is unwilling to take care of the twins or take the dog to day-care" means the husband is not going to either of those things, i.e. the speaker wishes for the husband to do one of these two things and the husband is doing neither. Likewise, "unwilling to make eye contact or communicate" means "is not willing to either make eye contact" and "is not willing to communicate". In fact, it feels very natural to me to take that interpretation. But I am completely open to the idea that this is not the case in other people's English. I don't know the OP guy, so there's no real skin in the game for me, but I really think he has the same meaning as me here.
        phendrenad2 4y ago
        My initial take was that "unwilling to make eye contact or acknowledge" meant either/or as opposed to neither/nor. But I think there's also a possibility that I'm wrong. But can we know for sure? I feel that we have to try to interpret the first tweet as a standalone thing, because the followup explanations happened after he started getting called out for what is, in theory, illegal.
        whynaut 4y ago
        > My initial take was that "unwilling to make eye contact or acknowledge" meant either/or What would that even mean in practice though. It’s like a pointless thing to write.
- whynaut 4y ago
  The indomitable frumiousirc is incredibly incorrect.
BeefWellington 4y ago
What you're discussing is tangibly different than what's described in the thread though. Refusing to look the lone woman present in the eye while giving interview answers -- even for a primary interviewer who is a woman -- while making good eye contact with others present isn't the same as looking down/away from a male judge or magistrate in a court setting.
- karmakaze 4y ago
  This could be bias against those who are uncomfortable making eye contact with women. Is eye contact a requirement for communication? Certainly it helps but now with remote work, video meetings, and lots of async written artifacts, I find it much less so.
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    "Occasionally make eye contact with women" should probably be a reasonable expectation for professional employees, who should be expected to work well with diverse (not the identity politics meaning of that word) teams.
    - dolni 4y ago
      Does being shy around women make you a bad person? Does being uncomfortable around people who are different than you make you a bad person? It's one thing if someone outright ignores an interviewer (that is hugely disrespectful). It's entirely another if someone is forcing their values on someone else over something as trivial as eye contact. This whole thing sounds hand-wavy and virtue-signally to me. And in a bad way.
      - fknorangesite 4y ago
        > Does being shy around women make you a bad person? Does being uncomfortable around people who are different than you make you a bad person? It may not make you a bad person, but it would probably make you a bad hire. > It's one thing if someone outright ignores an interviewer (that is hugely disrespectful). If you read the entire twitter thread, you will see that this is exactly what is being discussed. And if you haven't seen this behaviour in person before, you haven't been paying attention.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rrauenza 4y ago
FWIW, later he clarified: > Spelling it out for the few people in replies wanting to misunderstand what I am saying: > We rejected candidates who refused to communicate w female interviewers when they asked questions or tried to communicate. They’d only respond to the guy, who did not initiate the comms! and > When I wrote "did not make eye contact" I meant "only made eye contact with the man, refused to do so with the woman" reflecting on how the woman was ignored. Not just about eye contact: was about refusing to communicate in any way with the woman: but not the man.

5350-uiop-1130 4y ago

Why did the guy post this on twitter, doesn't he know the kind of reaction it will generate. Anyway, i think it's fair game to filter out people who ignore the person asking questions, that's pretty abnormal behaviour regardless of gender. No need to for a twitter shitstorm to make that point.

liveoneggs 4y ago
he thought it would be good social signalling?
masterof0 4y ago
I felt the same way, what a weird thing to tweet about. In all my years interviewing I have never seen anyone that wouldn't talk (or look at the eyes) of my female coworker when interviewing or elsewhere. I had female managers, directors and CTOs, and I don't recall an instance where the gender of the person were a problem. Looking at the person's twitter profile, he matches the type of those who think that having worked at FAANG or FAANG-like companies gives them some sort of extra credibility or something. I work and have worked at FAANGs and feel like if I have to write a short Bio for myself, the company I work for wouldn't make it there.
- loriverkutya 4y ago
  I have, the interview ended fast.
- notreallyserio 4y ago
  If you want my anecdote, I've seen it a lot. I'd suggest asking your managers, directors, CEOs if they've experienced it themselves -- I bet they have and that it happens all the time. Dismissing this as mere signaling (as others here have) is ironically almost as bad.
  - DoneWithAllThat 4y ago
    Because everyone has experienced being ignored in various settings before. Its a thing that happens regardless of sex or age or color. It doesn’t necessarily mean it was due to some *ism.

baisq 4y ago

loriverkutya 4y ago
I'm not sure how many interviews you have been, but all of my interviews started with introductions so it was always pretty clear which position they are holding in the company.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
a_shovel 4y ago
Well, at least now you know you shouldn't assume that.

vmception 4y ago

I’ve had that happen to me in the C-Suite of my own companies, with vendors, partners, advisors Not exactly easy to screen them out, because you want their business! Annoying but I just remember “that’s what I hired this white guy with the ivy league pedigree for, atmosphere modeling” so the vendors have someone to make eye contact with It works, I do the same in every country. I’m not spending a single minute of time on “representation and diversity trends in South Korea” I just do the thing that most likely makes money, I don't treat the US differently. Save the causes for after you’re done trying to make money. Nice to know others have that experience.

tragictrash 4y ago
I've unknowingly been that guy before. Ended up giving that employer the finger on my way out. Good riddance. It works, but you're just pandering to dinosaurs.
- vmception 4y ago
  Which guy. The one not making eye contact? The atmosphere model? The person not getting eye contact?
  - tragictrash 4y ago
    Atmosphere model, thanks def needed to clarify that one.
    - vmception 4y ago
      Yeah, good for you sticking up for yourself, my guy didn’t have other marketable skills and was also adequately tied to the value of their stake. Definitely true on how this behavior in my case was correlated to old people. The one about women being ignored probably has broader distribution.

a_shovel 4y ago

Actively filtering out sexists (, racists, etc.) from your hiring process is a practical necessity for any company. If your company will hire programmers who refuse to acknowledge that women can be technically skilled, imagine what the salespeople hired through this process are saying to female customers. It's only bad options, and one of the worst ones is "nothing".

MarkusWandel 4y ago

I'd have been toast. Not because I'm an evil chauvinist, but because I'm a typical geek who took half a lifetime to get comfortable with making eye contact with, actually pretty much anyone, but particularly women. But technically competent. Luckily I did get hired for that.

liveoneggs 4y ago
it's selecting for a specific "culture" and personality type https://genius.com/18702731/Pink-floyd-dogs/And-after-a-while-you-can-work-on-points-for-style-like-the-club-tie-and-the-firm-handshake-a-certain-look-in-the-eye-and-an-easy-smile-you-have-to-be-trusted-by-the-people-that-you-lie-to-so-that-when-they-turn-their-backs-on-you-youll-get-the-chance-to-put-the-knife-in https://genius.com/18702731/Pink-floyd-dogs/And-after-a-whil...

mc4ndr3 4y ago

I have trouble maintaining eye contact with anyone. Though I agree that our industry has a bad track record of gender equality and needs to improve.

Boltgolt 4y ago
The point is that these candidates were only looking at (and talking to) the man in the room. Not making eye contact at all is very different from only making eye contact with men and ignoring women

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

prepend 4y ago

It seems like a good idea to avoid hiring people who won’t talk with women. But it seems so unbelievable that this was a common problem as this is something I’ve never witnessed in probably hundreds of interviews that included women interviewers. I once worked for a company that had a Japanese client and the client wouldn’t interact with women leadership. This was back in the days when software was delivered on cd and they wouldn’t accept the cd from a woman. It really skeeved me out and I refused to be part of the ceremony.

fknorangesite 4y ago
> this is something I’ve never witnessed Ask the women in your life if they have.
- prepend 4y ago
  Good suggestion, I should have been more thorough and said “this is something I’ve never witnessed and all of the women in my life I’ve talked with have not witnessed.” I’ll also add that it’s pretty easy to tell if someone is making eye contact or not. What I have witnessed, and been reported to me by women colleagues, is people being dismissive and redirecting to males. But they still looked them on the eye as they then directed the conversation away from women to men. It’s the eye contact thing that stood out to me as being odd.
metalforever 4y ago
Really? Because I am a woman tech interviewer at a large tech company and this happens to me a lot.
- prepend 4y ago
  Really, I confirm my earlier observation. It’s interesting how people can have such different experiences but that’s part of what makes the world so wonderful. I’m sorry you’ve experienced this and wish you worked in the companies I did as I guess we were just lucky with our applicants. Or you were unlucky with yours.

closeparen 4y ago

I cannot imagine interviews and candidates ever being in the same room again. Even in a hybrid company, what are the odds that the whole panel came in on the same day? This seems pretty pot-stirring for academic history.

metalforever 4y ago
Just did one this week on site .

molbioguy 4y ago

To properly judge a candidate, don't assume, don't hide requirements; If you're willing to filter them out on it, tell them up front what you're judging them on. If they still can't or won't comply, your filter might be reasonable, otherwise it's unfair.

fknorangesite 4y ago
To be honest I wouldn't be hyped about someone who needs "treat men and women equally" explicitly spelled out for them.
- molbioguy 4y ago
  I get your point, but as long as someone can act the way you demand, why does it matter whether they would have acted that way on their own. The public interface is what matters, not private thoughts, not cultural or personal influences. You're interviewing for a professional job, not a personal relationship.

moistly 4y ago

If you wish to test this out in real life, men, tag along with a woman who is shopping for a new car. I guarantee that the vast majority of salesmen will talk to you, not her. Doesn’t matter that she initiated the interaction with the salesman while you hung out in the background, doesn’t matter that she has said that it will be her car that she is paying for. As long as you are in conversational range, almost all the car salesmen will talk to you, not her. Source: been there, done that, repeatedly.