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Russia Just Lost Its Most Advanced Operational Tank in Ukraine

9 points by nsoonhui 5y ago

PaulHoule 5y ago
Eastern Europe is full of Stalinist ‘big block’ apartment buildings which seem to have been built to put an end to blitzkreig.. That is, if you don’t destroy them all with artillery first somebody on the sixth floor is going to drop a piano on you, drop a Molotov cocktail on you, shoot at you with an anti-material rifle, shoot at you with an RPG-7, etc. The tank cannot raise its gun to do anything about it, even if it did, reinforced concrete is highly protective for the inhabitants. Any tank that goes into that environment is going there to die no matter how advanced it is. In the 1970s the west fantasized about stopping tank columns with neutron bombs but in the 1980s they made nuclear weapons obsolete with whole families of weapons like the Javein, CBU-100, CBU-97, now drone-dropped bombs, that fall from above and hit where the armor is weak. It’s hard to resist the conclusion that tanks are mostly obsolete.
- BeefWellington 5y ago
  The tank in the photo[1] is in what looks like a wooded area, driving along what might be a gravel walking path or road. While what you're saying is true it appears this was more of a classic wooded ambush, although we cannot see the full surrounding terrain, so it's possible there are buildings nearby. [1]: https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1521898240509108226 https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1521898240509108226
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
    "Death from above" gets you when there aren't buildings around that is, tanks today face the dual threats of urban warfare and weapons that attack from above. T-80 derivatives were used in the Chechen wars and got a very bad reputation because those were destroyed in large numbers. Other tanks avoided getting a bad reputation in the Chechen wars simply because they weren't used. The T-90 has some real improvements over prior warpac armor but I don't think enough to make it survivable against Javelin and similar weapons. In particular they don't have an answer to the "whole tank explodes if the ammunition gets hit" problem. NATO was intimidated by the T-72 tank in the 1970s, the decision to go with manual loading as opposed to autoloading in the M-1 was controversial but turned out to be the right move because the M-1 has done very well in combat whereas all the warpac T-72 derivatives (like the T-90) have done poorly.

9 points by nsoonhui 5y ago

Eastern Europe is full of Stalinist ‘big block’ apartment buildings which seem to have been built to put an end to blitzkreig.. That is, if you don’t destroy them all with artillery first somebody on the sixth floor is going to drop a piano on you, drop a Molotov cocktail on you, shoot at you with an anti-material rifle, shoot at you with an RPG-7, etc. The tank cannot raise its gun to do anything about it, even if it did, reinforced concrete is highly protective for the inhabitants. Any tank that goes into that environment is going there to die no matter how advanced it is. In the 1970s the west fantasized about stopping tank columns with neutron bombs but in the 1980s they made nuclear weapons obsolete with whole families of weapons like the Javein, CBU-100, CBU-97, now drone-dropped bombs, that fall from above and hit where the armor is weak. It’s hard to resist the conclusion that tanks are mostly obsolete.

BeefWellington 5y ago
The tank in the photo[1] is in what looks like a wooded area, driving along what might be a gravel walking path or road. While what you're saying is true it appears this was more of a classic wooded ambush, although we cannot see the full surrounding terrain, so it's possible there are buildings nearby. [1]: https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1521898240509108226 https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1521898240509108226
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  "Death from above" gets you when there aren't buildings around that is, tanks today face the dual threats of urban warfare and weapons that attack from above. T-80 derivatives were used in the Chechen wars and got a very bad reputation because those were destroyed in large numbers. Other tanks avoided getting a bad reputation in the Chechen wars simply because they weren't used. The T-90 has some real improvements over prior warpac armor but I don't think enough to make it survivable against Javelin and similar weapons. In particular they don't have an answer to the "whole tank explodes if the ammunition gets hit" problem. NATO was intimidated by the T-72 tank in the 1970s, the decision to go with manual loading as opposed to autoloading in the M-1 was controversial but turned out to be the right move because the M-1 has done very well in combat whereas all the warpac T-72 derivatives (like the T-90) have done poorly.