7 ms·

Ofc it is plummeting. We are letting them install apps that have people behind them with the sole job of making them more addictive. We are handing them drugs,

by chimen 4y ago

Ofc it is plummeting. We are letting them install apps that have people behind them with the sole job of making them more addictive. We are handing them drugs, multiple variants if I may say so. I had to fight with my daughter for TikTok and whatnot, she is only allowed with YouTube due to school/tutorials/classes etc and I still find myself pretty often having to snap her out of shorts and other bs with an algorithm behind it designed to keep you on and ...consuming. These are modern drugs my friends and we are not doing anything about it. Our kids are being milked of their time, attention, imagination, focus and money. The majority of them can't even cross the streets properly any more. They don't even look if the drivers saw them, they all have a phone in hand.

Shadonototra 4y ago
> I had to fight with my daughter for TikTok and whatnot, she is only allowed with YouTube due to school/tutorials/classes etc this is very bad, the problem is not tiktok, she finds an escape thanks to tiktok, don't remove that from her talk to her, talk to her teacher if she doesn't have problems at school with other kids > Our kids are being milked of their time, attention, imagination, focus and money. The majority of them can't even cross the streets properly any more. They don't even look if the drivers saw them, they all have a phone in hand. that's an education problem, it is your fault, not theirs or some apps
- Loughla 4y ago
  >that's an education problem, it is your fault, not theirs or some apps Honestly, do you think parents are able to effectively counter literal billion-dollar companies that pour resources into making sure their apps are engaging (read: addictive)? How? We've taken a hard-line stance with our kids and have explained/educated them on every aspect of social media, attention, and addictive programs. And we're still losing the fight. I genuinely think people massively underestimate how addictive many apps are, especially to developing minds that are constantly seeking novelty.
  - Shadonototra 4y ago
    > Honestly, do you think parents are able to effectively counter literal billion-dollar companies that pour resources into making sure their apps are engaging (read: addictive)? How? not by trying to put the fault on them or dodging the issue by finding excuses if you ban tiktok today, tomorrow will appear a new one, embrace them for what they are, social communication mediums, and educate your kids with the problems and how they can avoid them, and to contact you in case they face them the reason they are finding an escape through them and not thought you is because you are hostile to the way they communicate with their friends, and if you add the pandemic to the bags, it is easy to understand why they are using it more often trying to push an agenda, and using "teen mental health" as an excuse is disgusting student loan, much deadlier, and nobody gives a shit facebook? deadlier from 7 to 77, and nobody gives a shit, but tiktok? all of a sudden, it's the evil ;) because you can't spread your propaganda? politic or commercial? how sad! teens and young adult too busy spreading positivity on tiktok, we must fight!
    - _aavaa_ 4y ago
      > facebook? deadlier from 7 to 77, and nobody gives a shit, but tiktok? all of a sudden, it's the evil ;) I don't think that's true at all. Facebook and tiktok are bad for you in their own ways and I'd be willing to bet that many of the people who rail against TikTok's detrimental effects railed and continue to rail against Facebook.
    - chimen 4y ago
      > not by trying to put the fault on them or dodging the issue by finding excuses The issue is being taken care of don't worry, no excuses, straight from the root. > the reason they are finding an escape through them and not thought you is because you are hostile to the way they communicate with their friends I am not. She has whatsapp, youtube, meets, games and a healthy digital presence with her friends and colleagues. I just weed out crap that she is not prepared for, the addictive one. I do not find here prepared, at 10 years of age, to deal with crap like likes, followers, reactions, views or other meaningless measurements that put thousands into mental hospitals.
- chimen 4y ago
  I'm happily willing to show you a multitude of heroin/cocaine/meth/[insert other drug here] which were very well educated, schooled and taken care of - stop putting education that high. Addiction is not an escape. There are many forms an "escape" can take and TikTok is not one that I'm willing to accept because it creates addiction, one that is intelligently designed to eat her free time WHOLE so no, I will not take your advice on it. She can "escape" with a bike, with friends outside, with her dogs, with her drawings, dressing, swimming, snowboarding or many other healthy things she was taught to.
- navjack27 4y ago
  I completely agree with it being an education problem and like... I treat my YouTube watching or online media watching in a way where I would make fun of myself if I allowed myself to be controlled by the thing so I don't allow myself to put myself in situations where I would mock myself if that makes any remote sense. I think it's silly to not be in control of the things that I feed myself digitally or otherwise. It is a state to be mocked. I don't want to call myself "some dumb nerd" so I don't allow myself to be called that by acting dumb. It sounds really maybe abusive but it might be a way to get under the skin of your child if you don't warn them about these things in a soft kind manner but in a way like "you wanna look like a dork with no control? You know while your friends do this stuff but like they don't have control. Don't you want control? Isn't that why you are watching this stuff? Because you have anxiety and you don't have control over things? So , why don't you take control and not watch the things that all of these devices and services serve you and go do something a whole lot better with your time?"
  - chimen 4y ago
    And what's your next move once you explained that and still find them "escaping" for hours in these meaningless apps? Do you have children? How many being teenagers? Can you explain in a "soft kind manner" to an addict that they should just quit? You can fight it pro-actively or re-actively. I prefer the former as, at least, prevents the addiction from even forming. Please identify a smoker in your close circle and explain in a "soft manner" to them how that thing causes cancer, lowers life expectancy, increases heart rate and all the jazz that we are sure of - scary stuff. Report back if they quit. I cannot be in total control and I do NOT want that but, at least, I'm not putting cigarettes on the table myself because that's what this is.
    - Shadonototra 4y ago
      - make it illegal to gather data/track/serve ads in apps for users -18 - make it illegal to offer microtransactions in apps for users -18 there, you fix half of the problems, no longer companies will make their app addictive to teens then up to the parents to regulate screen time for their kids
Nextgrid 4y ago
It's not a problem that can be solved at an individual level. Physical drugs are relatively easy to not get into because for the most part, the majority of society doesn't use them and their users are still mostly marginalized. If your current social group are drug addicts it's possible to find a new, healthier group. Digital drugs on the other hand are something that nearly everyone uses and thus you have to use them if you want to effectively fit in and participate in society. Not consuming these drugs just makes you an outcast especially in a ruthless environment such as school. The solution is regulation to make digital-drug-dealing illegal. Kill this whole "attention economy" with fire and make such a disgusting business model impossible to operate and the problem will self-resolve.
- DaltonCoffee 4y ago
  >Physical drugs >majority of society doesn't use Maybe you meant illicit drugs. Almost everyone I know of consumes some type of drug. Your idea seems similar to China's recent policy, restricting access to online games for younger people.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    I'm not arguing about censoring anything. Just add regulation to make "engagement"-funded business models unprofitable, which will kill the underlying motivation to make social media addictive.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    What are your thoughts on that Chinese law? I’m fascinated to see the effects - positive or negative. I’m torn on it, because it seems incredibly illiberal and suffocating, and I would have despised it as a teen, but it’s the only legislation of its type I’ve seen anywhere in the world. I genuinely believe it’s well intentioned.
- leach 4y ago
  We should just apply a 500% tax or something ridiculous to these ad companies that claim to be tech companies. They don't actually contribute anything to society, they are just vampires leeching on attention and time and selling whatever data they get. In a perfect world they wouldn't exist at all, in our flawed one they should have to pay the price for providing essentially nothing.
navjack27 4y ago
How the heck is your daughter not on the mode of YouTube where it doesn't switch to whatever is recommended next and how come she isn't taught not to watch shorts? I don't have kids and I don't want kids but like is it really hard to completely enforce some sort of a online media literacy?
- omnicognate 4y ago
  To enforce restrictions is indeed very hard. I know because I do it, using a whitelisting proxy. It's possible (even uncircumventably for mobile devices, using a managed device and an always-on wireguard vpn) but it is far from trivial to do and I am in a vanishingly tiny minority in doing it. To enforce literacy is of course easy. Talk to them, teach them. To enforce that a child actually follows your advice not to watch thing X when they have the physical ability to watch thing X, including when you aren't looking? Basically impossible. Kids aren't computers. They don't necessarily do what you tell them to do. I mean, I have massive difficulty getting myself not to waste my life on the internet, this very comment being evidence of the fact.
  - sigspec 4y ago
    Well said. I've been using a combination of OS, Service, and hardware tools to slowing restrict and guide my children online. It's incredibly difficult and tedious. The average non-tech parent has no hope in this regard.
    - tekknik 4y ago
      Sounds like a product idea.
- alt227 4y ago
  IMO If you dont have kids, you do not have the knowledge to comment on how to raise them. No matter how many kids or families you have known or seen, having your own is a completely different world.
  - 4y ago
specialist 4y ago
Yes and: My favorite podcaster has started calling it "dopa", short for dopamine hacking.
30944836 4y ago
>They don't even look if the drivers saw them, they all have a phone in hand. And the driver's do too! It's insane. I live in a moderately-sized city (~1m people) and I've learned to keep my phone in my pocket or not bring it at all, and to definitely take out headphones when I cross the street. I've still been almost hit, many many times, and I'm not even jaywalking. I literally wait for the white walking person to show before I step off the curb.

by chimen 4y ago

Shadonototra 4y ago

> I had to fight with my daughter for TikTok and whatnot, she is only allowed with YouTube due to school/tutorials/classes etc this is very bad, the problem is not tiktok, she finds an escape thanks to tiktok, don't remove that from her talk to her, talk to her teacher if she doesn't have problems at school with other kids > Our kids are being milked of their time, attention, imagination, focus and money. The majority of them can't even cross the streets properly any more. They don't even look if the drivers saw them, they all have a phone in hand. that's an education problem, it is your fault, not theirs or some apps

Loughla 4y ago
>that's an education problem, it is your fault, not theirs or some apps Honestly, do you think parents are able to effectively counter literal billion-dollar companies that pour resources into making sure their apps are engaging (read: addictive)? How? We've taken a hard-line stance with our kids and have explained/educated them on every aspect of social media, attention, and addictive programs. And we're still losing the fight. I genuinely think people massively underestimate how addictive many apps are, especially to developing minds that are constantly seeking novelty.
- Shadonototra 4y ago
  > Honestly, do you think parents are able to effectively counter literal billion-dollar companies that pour resources into making sure their apps are engaging (read: addictive)? How? not by trying to put the fault on them or dodging the issue by finding excuses if you ban tiktok today, tomorrow will appear a new one, embrace them for what they are, social communication mediums, and educate your kids with the problems and how they can avoid them, and to contact you in case they face them the reason they are finding an escape through them and not thought you is because you are hostile to the way they communicate with their friends, and if you add the pandemic to the bags, it is easy to understand why they are using it more often trying to push an agenda, and using "teen mental health" as an excuse is disgusting student loan, much deadlier, and nobody gives a shit facebook? deadlier from 7 to 77, and nobody gives a shit, but tiktok? all of a sudden, it's the evil ;) because you can't spread your propaganda? politic or commercial? how sad! teens and young adult too busy spreading positivity on tiktok, we must fight!
  - _aavaa_ 4y ago
    > facebook? deadlier from 7 to 77, and nobody gives a shit, but tiktok? all of a sudden, it's the evil ;) I don't think that's true at all. Facebook and tiktok are bad for you in their own ways and I'd be willing to bet that many of the people who rail against TikTok's detrimental effects railed and continue to rail against Facebook.
  - chimen 4y ago
    > not by trying to put the fault on them or dodging the issue by finding excuses The issue is being taken care of don't worry, no excuses, straight from the root. > the reason they are finding an escape through them and not thought you is because you are hostile to the way they communicate with their friends I am not. She has whatsapp, youtube, meets, games and a healthy digital presence with her friends and colleagues. I just weed out crap that she is not prepared for, the addictive one. I do not find here prepared, at 10 years of age, to deal with crap like likes, followers, reactions, views or other meaningless measurements that put thousands into mental hospitals.
chimen 4y ago
I'm happily willing to show you a multitude of heroin/cocaine/meth/[insert other drug here] which were very well educated, schooled and taken care of - stop putting education that high. Addiction is not an escape. There are many forms an "escape" can take and TikTok is not one that I'm willing to accept because it creates addiction, one that is intelligently designed to eat her free time WHOLE so no, I will not take your advice on it. She can "escape" with a bike, with friends outside, with her dogs, with her drawings, dressing, swimming, snowboarding or many other healthy things she was taught to.
navjack27 4y ago
I completely agree with it being an education problem and like... I treat my YouTube watching or online media watching in a way where I would make fun of myself if I allowed myself to be controlled by the thing so I don't allow myself to put myself in situations where I would mock myself if that makes any remote sense. I think it's silly to not be in control of the things that I feed myself digitally or otherwise. It is a state to be mocked. I don't want to call myself "some dumb nerd" so I don't allow myself to be called that by acting dumb. It sounds really maybe abusive but it might be a way to get under the skin of your child if you don't warn them about these things in a soft kind manner but in a way like "you wanna look like a dork with no control? You know while your friends do this stuff but like they don't have control. Don't you want control? Isn't that why you are watching this stuff? Because you have anxiety and you don't have control over things? So , why don't you take control and not watch the things that all of these devices and services serve you and go do something a whole lot better with your time?"
- chimen 4y ago
  And what's your next move once you explained that and still find them "escaping" for hours in these meaningless apps? Do you have children? How many being teenagers? Can you explain in a "soft kind manner" to an addict that they should just quit? You can fight it pro-actively or re-actively. I prefer the former as, at least, prevents the addiction from even forming. Please identify a smoker in your close circle and explain in a "soft manner" to them how that thing causes cancer, lowers life expectancy, increases heart rate and all the jazz that we are sure of - scary stuff. Report back if they quit. I cannot be in total control and I do NOT want that but, at least, I'm not putting cigarettes on the table myself because that's what this is.
  - Shadonototra 4y ago
    - make it illegal to gather data/track/serve ads in apps for users -18 - make it illegal to offer microtransactions in apps for users -18 there, you fix half of the problems, no longer companies will make their app addictive to teens then up to the parents to regulate screen time for their kids

Nextgrid 4y ago

It's not a problem that can be solved at an individual level. Physical drugs are relatively easy to not get into because for the most part, the majority of society doesn't use them and their users are still mostly marginalized. If your current social group are drug addicts it's possible to find a new, healthier group. Digital drugs on the other hand are something that nearly everyone uses and thus you have to use them if you want to effectively fit in and participate in society. Not consuming these drugs just makes you an outcast especially in a ruthless environment such as school. The solution is regulation to make digital-drug-dealing illegal. Kill this whole "attention economy" with fire and make such a disgusting business model impossible to operate and the problem will self-resolve.

DaltonCoffee 4y ago
>Physical drugs >majority of society doesn't use Maybe you meant illicit drugs. Almost everyone I know of consumes some type of drug. Your idea seems similar to China's recent policy, restricting access to online games for younger people.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  I'm not arguing about censoring anything. Just add regulation to make "engagement"-funded business models unprofitable, which will kill the underlying motivation to make social media addictive.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  What are your thoughts on that Chinese law? I’m fascinated to see the effects - positive or negative. I’m torn on it, because it seems incredibly illiberal and suffocating, and I would have despised it as a teen, but it’s the only legislation of its type I’ve seen anywhere in the world. I genuinely believe it’s well intentioned.
leach 4y ago
We should just apply a 500% tax or something ridiculous to these ad companies that claim to be tech companies. They don't actually contribute anything to society, they are just vampires leeching on attention and time and selling whatever data they get. In a perfect world they wouldn't exist at all, in our flawed one they should have to pay the price for providing essentially nothing.

navjack27 4y ago

How the heck is your daughter not on the mode of YouTube where it doesn't switch to whatever is recommended next and how come she isn't taught not to watch shorts? I don't have kids and I don't want kids but like is it really hard to completely enforce some sort of a online media literacy?

omnicognate 4y ago
To enforce restrictions is indeed very hard. I know because I do it, using a whitelisting proxy. It's possible (even uncircumventably for mobile devices, using a managed device and an always-on wireguard vpn) but it is far from trivial to do and I am in a vanishingly tiny minority in doing it. To enforce literacy is of course easy. Talk to them, teach them. To enforce that a child actually follows your advice not to watch thing X when they have the physical ability to watch thing X, including when you aren't looking? Basically impossible. Kids aren't computers. They don't necessarily do what you tell them to do. I mean, I have massive difficulty getting myself not to waste my life on the internet, this very comment being evidence of the fact.
- sigspec 4y ago
  Well said. I've been using a combination of OS, Service, and hardware tools to slowing restrict and guide my children online. It's incredibly difficult and tedious. The average non-tech parent has no hope in this regard.
  - tekknik 4y ago
    Sounds like a product idea.
alt227 4y ago
IMO If you dont have kids, you do not have the knowledge to comment on how to raise them. No matter how many kids or families you have known or seen, having your own is a completely different world.
- 4y ago

specialist 4y ago

Yes and: My favorite podcaster has started calling it "dopa", short for dopamine hacking.

30944836 4y ago

>They don't even look if the drivers saw them, they all have a phone in hand. And the driver's do too! It's insane. I live in a moderately-sized city (~1m people) and I've learned to keep my phone in my pocket or not bring it at all, and to definitely take out headphones when I cross the street. I've still been almost hit, many many times, and I'm not even jaywalking. I literally wait for the white walking person to show before I step off the curb.