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> Nests & Insects is "Roguelike" because it borrows elements from Roguelike Computer RPGs (CRPGs): hack-and-slash, dungeon-crawling gameplay, with procedurally

by setr 4y ago

> Nests & Insects is "Roguelike" because it borrows elements from Roguelike Computer RPGs (CRPGs): hack-and-slash, dungeon-crawling gameplay, with procedurally generated Nest environments, lethal combat, and a hunger mechanic. Perhaps excepting procedural generation, all aspects are those Roguelikes took from TTRPGs… we’ve gone full circle But ADnD was clearly best DnD, and roguelikes are clearly best CRPG (because they draw from best DnD) so you can’t go wrong with that

YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
>> Perhaps excepting procedural generation, all aspects are those Roguelikes took from TTRPGs… we’ve gone full circle Absolutely! I have some thoughts on this that haven't crystallised yet, but the gist of it is that computer Roguelikes like Nethack have basically preserved certain basal characteristics of a certain style of RPG design[1] that was popular around the '80s and that involved setting up the conditions for adventurer-style characters delving into dungeons to retrieve richess and getting killed often, and in horrible, but memorable ways. Those "basal characteristics" are just the mechanics that enabled this style of play, primarily by necessity, because those are the mechanics that are relatively easy to implement on a computer and even _easier_ to implement on a computer. For example, roguelikes and later Computer RPGs (CRPGs) include mechanics for things like Hit Points, Experience Points, loot, encumberance and gold, that are bookeeping-intense and therefore tedious to have in a physical game. In particular, my experience with mainly 3.5 ed. D&D was that combat was a matter of constant scratching and scrawling on character sheets to keep track of HP going up and down, as damage was dealt and healed, then followed by even more scratching and scrawling as XP were handed about and loot and gold was distributed at the end of an encounter. I'm not critical of this style of play but I sure don't find the bookkeeping fun! It makes sense to do it with a computer, but in a physical game, it's a limitation to enjoyment that needs to be addressed. And I've sure tried to do that in Nests & Insects. So I think I'm saying that what I mean by "Roguelike TTRPG" is really an attempt to port the gameplay of Roguelike CRPGs to the table, but without all the elements that would make a human feel like a computer (if that's not the conceit of the game, that is). Oh, btw- procedural, or rather random, generation was with TTRPGs from the start. If I understand correctly, the first edition D&D books had random tables for wandering monster encounters and probably other such random tables also. So, I don't know, maybe the procedural generation is also something that CRPG Roguelikes took from TTRPGs...? __________________ [1] Note I'm saying "design" and not "play". I did not play back then so I don't know how those games were actually played. I also don't own and haven't really read many early-era RPGs so I'm largely speculating about the design elements, also.
- setr 4y ago
  > Oh, btw- procedural, or rather random, generation was with TTRPGs from the start. If I understand correctly, the first edition D&D books had random tables for wandering monster encounters and probably other such random tables also. So, I don't know, maybe the procedural generation is also something that CRPG Roguelikes took from TTRPGs...? I was thinking more along the lines of world gen, but I suppose at the end of the day it’s mostly implemented as more lookup tables with some noise in-between. In which case, it truly has gone full circle > I'm not critical of this style of play but I sure don't find the bookkeeping fun! It makes sense to do it with a computer, but in a physical game, it's a limitation to enjoyment that needs to be addressed. And I've sure tried to do that in Nests & Insects. Fully agreed. ADnD games I’ve played are much more in the “wing it” nature of combat; GM decides difficulty of the convoluted act you’ve described, and you roll… modern DnD has tried to manage the problem of the poor GM doing poor arbitration by standardizing values across the board, by paying the severe cost of enormous amounts of book-keeping. Ultimately if you assume a fair & competent judge, you only need the rough guidelines for effective play. Roguelikes are also a little awkward to take example from as well because they’ve removed the “party” element of the TTRPG, and associated mechanics that actually force specialization and party inter-action, but it looks like you’ve reintroduced that appropriately.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
    Oh, right, that's true about the party. I somehow forgot about that- thanks for reminding me. Roguelikes are by default solo, aren't they? In fact, just today I went and corrected the rulebook and the repo README to say that Nests & Insects is a game for _2_ to 7 players, not "1 to 7" as I had it before. There's no explicit solo mode. >> In which case, it truly has gone full circle It sure has! Not just with my game. I'm noticing more and more TTRPGs (particularly OSR ones) with a substantial element of procedural generation. And there's a whole bunch of gaming supplemenst that are literally just tables of randomly generated items, characters, names, locations, monsters... I think I even saw one book of randomly generated dungeon decorations? Like architectural elements, that sort of thing. Well, I'm certainly trying to abstract and simplify the procedural generation as much as possible. It can easily become just another tedious exercise in bookkeeping.

by setr 4y ago

YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago

>> Perhaps excepting procedural generation, all aspects are those Roguelikes took from TTRPGs… we’ve gone full circle Absolutely! I have some thoughts on this that haven't crystallised yet, but the gist of it is that computer Roguelikes like Nethack have basically preserved certain basal characteristics of a certain style of RPG design[1] that was popular around the '80s and that involved setting up the conditions for adventurer-style characters delving into dungeons to retrieve richess and getting killed often, and in horrible, but memorable ways. Those "basal characteristics" are just the mechanics that enabled this style of play, primarily by necessity, because those are the mechanics that are relatively easy to implement on a computer and even _easier_ to implement on a computer. For example, roguelikes and later Computer RPGs (CRPGs) include mechanics for things like Hit Points, Experience Points, loot, encumberance and gold, that are bookeeping-intense and therefore tedious to have in a physical game. In particular, my experience with mainly 3.5 ed. D&D was that combat was a matter of constant scratching and scrawling on character sheets to keep track of HP going up and down, as damage was dealt and healed, then followed by even more scratching and scrawling as XP were handed about and loot and gold was distributed at the end of an encounter. I'm not critical of this style of play but I sure don't find the bookkeeping fun! It makes sense to do it with a computer, but in a physical game, it's a limitation to enjoyment that needs to be addressed. And I've sure tried to do that in Nests & Insects. So I think I'm saying that what I mean by "Roguelike TTRPG" is really an attempt to port the gameplay of Roguelike CRPGs to the table, but without all the elements that would make a human feel like a computer (if that's not the conceit of the game, that is). Oh, btw- procedural, or rather random, generation was with TTRPGs from the start. If I understand correctly, the first edition D&D books had random tables for wandering monster encounters and probably other such random tables also. So, I don't know, maybe the procedural generation is also something that CRPG Roguelikes took from TTRPGs...? __________________ [1] Note I'm saying "design" and not "play". I did not play back then so I don't know how those games were actually played. I also don't own and haven't really read many early-era RPGs so I'm largely speculating about the design elements, also.

setr 4y ago
> Oh, btw- procedural, or rather random, generation was with TTRPGs from the start. If I understand correctly, the first edition D&D books had random tables for wandering monster encounters and probably other such random tables also. So, I don't know, maybe the procedural generation is also something that CRPG Roguelikes took from TTRPGs...? I was thinking more along the lines of world gen, but I suppose at the end of the day it’s mostly implemented as more lookup tables with some noise in-between. In which case, it truly has gone full circle > I'm not critical of this style of play but I sure don't find the bookkeeping fun! It makes sense to do it with a computer, but in a physical game, it's a limitation to enjoyment that needs to be addressed. And I've sure tried to do that in Nests & Insects. Fully agreed. ADnD games I’ve played are much more in the “wing it” nature of combat; GM decides difficulty of the convoluted act you’ve described, and you roll… modern DnD has tried to manage the problem of the poor GM doing poor arbitration by standardizing values across the board, by paying the severe cost of enormous amounts of book-keeping. Ultimately if you assume a fair & competent judge, you only need the rough guidelines for effective play. Roguelikes are also a little awkward to take example from as well because they’ve removed the “party” element of the TTRPG, and associated mechanics that actually force specialization and party inter-action, but it looks like you’ve reintroduced that appropriately.
- YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
  Oh, right, that's true about the party. I somehow forgot about that- thanks for reminding me. Roguelikes are by default solo, aren't they? In fact, just today I went and corrected the rulebook and the repo README to say that Nests & Insects is a game for _2_ to 7 players, not "1 to 7" as I had it before. There's no explicit solo mode. >> In which case, it truly has gone full circle It sure has! Not just with my game. I'm noticing more and more TTRPGs (particularly OSR ones) with a substantial element of procedural generation. And there's a whole bunch of gaming supplemenst that are literally just tables of randomly generated items, characters, names, locations, monsters... I think I even saw one book of randomly generated dungeon decorations? Like architectural elements, that sort of thing. Well, I'm certainly trying to abstract and simplify the procedural generation as much as possible. It can easily become just another tedious exercise in bookkeeping.