5 ms·

Tractor fuel produced at the foot of a wind turbine in the middle of a farmer's field, that doesn't need to be transported from a refinery, would have immediate

by ncmncm 5y ago

alex_young 5y ago
Why not just make electric tractors? The energy efficiency of converting wind -> electricity -> fuel -> mechanical power has to be less efficient than wind -> electricity -> mechanical power right?
- coderintherye 5y ago
  Solectrac is making electric tractors in production. They are available today (though waiting period between deposit and delivery).
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Boutique item, maybe unless the batteries can be replaced while it operates. They would need a hell of a lot of spare batteries, and somebody running around replacing them. Presumably today people are driving out to fill up fuel in existing tractors after some number of rows.
    - coderintherye 5y ago
      Yes and no. It's not targeted at massive monoculture farms such as corn farms in the Midwest. Rather it is targeted at operations where a smaller tractor with a few hours runtime is useful. That includes not only hobby farmers but also vineyards, etc.
- LgWoodenBadger 5y ago
  With the amounts of extra weight farmers often add to their tractors, and their general hatred of DEF and regen cycles, electric tractors seem like a billion dollar idea just waiting for someone to pick it up and run with it.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    I doubt batteries are up to the task. Tractors and implements are big, so the battery is going to have to be huge, which is going to further increase the weight of the tractor and so on. Plus if you’re in the middle of harvest season (you have a narrow window to get crops out of the ground and you work around the clock for a week or so), you can’t afford to wait an hour to charge your tractor after driving it for an hour or two. Anyway, you would have to have electricity in ample supply on site or else you’re taking your tractor offline for even longer while you drive it to and from your field for a charge.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Tractors are very expensive. Farmers will not replace them just for this. And, they need to operate all day long, which would take a hell of a lot of battery. Retrofitting with ammonia tankage and plumbing (making them cheaper to run) is an expense they might prefer to avoid until they have a reliable secondary supply of ammonia.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    They need to run all day and all night for ~2 weeks straight twice a year and then they can sit idle most of the rest of the time. But during those 4 weeks charging for one out of every three hours (I’m assuming that a big tractor pulling a big implement is going to deplete even a really big battery fast and charging a battery that large is probably going to take a long time) isn’t going to be tolerable.
- nyokodo 5y ago
  > The energy efficiency of converting wind -> electricity -> fuel -> mechanical power has to be less efficient than wind -> electricity -> mechanical power It depends on how efficient it is to use existing ICE tractors vs creating new electric tractors. If tractors are like other ICE vehicles then something like half the energy they take over their lifetime is used in their production so if you want to get to Net-0 sooner generating carbon neutral fuel might be the way to go.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Efficiency is secondary. Cost is primary. As the cost of generator capacity continues on down, people worry less about efficiency. The top-line input, sunshine, is free. So it is a question of capital cost amortized over energy produced.
    - nyokodo 5y ago
      > Efficiency is secondary. Cost is primary. While the question I was responding to was explicitly about efficiency, you might be right about cost. However, ICE tractors that are already owned along with the capital required for their use and maintenance are potentially a lot more attractive to keep vs new electric tractors. Sunshine might be free but it’s not available in sufficient quantities everywhere with current technology, and all technologies will require ongoing maintenance. With China becoming an untrustworthy trade partner the cost of solar panels will likely rise. If they do I hope they can make affordable efuel so that we make progress either way.
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        Solar panels are produced in many more places, now. (Former-Soviet) Georgia produces a very great number of them, for example, at exemplary prices. There is plenty of sunshine most places if you can bank fuel during off-season. Finns will probably still need to import from the south or via transmission line if the wind is off -- as they have done for many decades on a more regular schedule.
        5y ago
- tastyfreeze 5y ago
  It is easier and cheaper to store liquid fuel. Making liquid fuel would allow fuel to be made and stored in the off season in a greater quantity than could be reasonable be stored in batteries.
- seltzered_ 5y ago
  You have to look at gravimetric and volumetric energy density, the book 'the future is rural' has a nice chart on this: https://twitter.com/vivekgani/status/1426017955398176770?t=01BSeyUK_HOjCWgjXvVfDQ&s=19 https://twitter.com/vivekgani/status/1426017955398176770?t=0...
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Chart omits liquified anhydrous ammonia. Its volumetric energy density is about half of diesel's, with a somewhat better mass energy density. You need bigger tanks that can hold back a bit of pressure, and new plumbing disinclined to corrosion. It also omits liquified hydrogen, which is inconvenient to handle, but not much moreso than liquified methane.
universa1 5y ago
While a nice theory, this is not competitive in practice... The capital costs and loss in productivity result in about a 2 to 3 times lower profit per unit of land compared to full solar. Just put solar on the non-ideal fields (iirc about 4% of German AG area would be needed to cover electricity demand with solar)
- ncmncm 5y ago
  You miss the point that identically the same land is now producing two revenue streams, one year-round. And, that ag yield is increased. Fortunately, they don't need your approval. It is being done now. Japanese are leading.
- ehnto 5y ago
  It might not need to be 100% of fuel used, subsidizing the fuel supply would be enough I think. It would also allow those farms to claim some of that as carbon credits and other green certificates.
pjc50 5y ago
> doesn't need to be transported from a refinery Given how much cutting edge process chemistry is involved in this fuel manufacture, it will be a long time before it's available in small units, which will of course be more capital-intensive and less efficient than large units because that's how scaling works. It's far more likely this fuel will end up simply co-mingled with the global market and shipped all over the world from a few sites which are good for generation but not for direct consumption.
- DennisP 5y ago
  According to their "need for speed" page, their plan is to build factories producing units the size of shipping containers. They think they can have three of them by 2030, each churning out a quarter million units annually.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    ... I'll file that under "believe it when I see it". It would be genuinely transformative of the world economy if it happened.
    - DennisP 5y ago
      Indeed it would. It certainly wouldn't be possible if they needed heat and pressure. See this part of the article: > Our Fuel Forges are similar in many ways to hydrogen electrolyzers, in that they consist of many layers of cells, each consisting of a cathode, an anode, and a separator. In an H2 Electrolyzer, the anode is where electrons are stripped from water, producing oxygen, and the cathode is where electrons are added to protons, producing hydrogen gas. In our system, the anode works the same way, but our cathode, in addition to making H2, also makes liquid fuels. Both systems have capital costs dominated by the costs of the electrochemical stacks. > This brings us to the issue of economies of scale. For high temperature / high pressure systems like Fischer Tropsch or e-methanol to gasoline (MTG), economies of scale mean large refinery installations that cost billions of dollars and years to build (and still don’t get to cost-competitive fuels). For modular, mobile systems like our Titan Fuel Forges, however, economies of scale mean mass manufacturing.
jabl 5y ago
> Fences made of double-sided solar panels mounted a bit more than tractor-width apart Er, tractors often tow implements that are significantly wider than the tractor itself.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  They can but are not obliged to.

by ncmncm 5y ago

alex_young 5y ago

Why not just make electric tractors? The energy efficiency of converting wind -> electricity -> fuel -> mechanical power has to be less efficient than wind -> electricity -> mechanical power right?

coderintherye 5y ago
Solectrac is making electric tractors in production. They are available today (though waiting period between deposit and delivery).
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Boutique item, maybe unless the batteries can be replaced while it operates. They would need a hell of a lot of spare batteries, and somebody running around replacing them. Presumably today people are driving out to fill up fuel in existing tractors after some number of rows.
  - coderintherye 5y ago
    Yes and no. It's not targeted at massive monoculture farms such as corn farms in the Midwest. Rather it is targeted at operations where a smaller tractor with a few hours runtime is useful. That includes not only hobby farmers but also vineyards, etc.
LgWoodenBadger 5y ago
With the amounts of extra weight farmers often add to their tractors, and their general hatred of DEF and regen cycles, electric tractors seem like a billion dollar idea just waiting for someone to pick it up and run with it.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  I doubt batteries are up to the task. Tractors and implements are big, so the battery is going to have to be huge, which is going to further increase the weight of the tractor and so on. Plus if you’re in the middle of harvest season (you have a narrow window to get crops out of the ground and you work around the clock for a week or so), you can’t afford to wait an hour to charge your tractor after driving it for an hour or two. Anyway, you would have to have electricity in ample supply on site or else you’re taking your tractor offline for even longer while you drive it to and from your field for a charge.
ncmncm 5y ago
Tractors are very expensive. Farmers will not replace them just for this. And, they need to operate all day long, which would take a hell of a lot of battery. Retrofitting with ammonia tankage and plumbing (making them cheaper to run) is an expense they might prefer to avoid until they have a reliable secondary supply of ammonia.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  They need to run all day and all night for ~2 weeks straight twice a year and then they can sit idle most of the rest of the time. But during those 4 weeks charging for one out of every three hours (I’m assuming that a big tractor pulling a big implement is going to deplete even a really big battery fast and charging a battery that large is probably going to take a long time) isn’t going to be tolerable.
nyokodo 5y ago
> The energy efficiency of converting wind -> electricity -> fuel -> mechanical power has to be less efficient than wind -> electricity -> mechanical power It depends on how efficient it is to use existing ICE tractors vs creating new electric tractors. If tractors are like other ICE vehicles then something like half the energy they take over their lifetime is used in their production so if you want to get to Net-0 sooner generating carbon neutral fuel might be the way to go.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Efficiency is secondary. Cost is primary. As the cost of generator capacity continues on down, people worry less about efficiency. The top-line input, sunshine, is free. So it is a question of capital cost amortized over energy produced.
  - nyokodo 5y ago
    > Efficiency is secondary. Cost is primary. While the question I was responding to was explicitly about efficiency, you might be right about cost. However, ICE tractors that are already owned along with the capital required for their use and maintenance are potentially a lot more attractive to keep vs new electric tractors. Sunshine might be free but it’s not available in sufficient quantities everywhere with current technology, and all technologies will require ongoing maintenance. With China becoming an untrustworthy trade partner the cost of solar panels will likely rise. If they do I hope they can make affordable efuel so that we make progress either way.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Solar panels are produced in many more places, now. (Former-Soviet) Georgia produces a very great number of them, for example, at exemplary prices. There is plenty of sunshine most places if you can bank fuel during off-season. Finns will probably still need to import from the south or via transmission line if the wind is off -- as they have done for many decades on a more regular schedule.
      - 5y ago
tastyfreeze 5y ago
It is easier and cheaper to store liquid fuel. Making liquid fuel would allow fuel to be made and stored in the off season in a greater quantity than could be reasonable be stored in batteries.
seltzered_ 5y ago
You have to look at gravimetric and volumetric energy density, the book 'the future is rural' has a nice chart on this: https://twitter.com/vivekgani/status/1426017955398176770?t=01BSeyUK_HOjCWgjXvVfDQ&s=19 https://twitter.com/vivekgani/status/1426017955398176770?t=0...
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Chart omits liquified anhydrous ammonia. Its volumetric energy density is about half of diesel's, with a somewhat better mass energy density. You need bigger tanks that can hold back a bit of pressure, and new plumbing disinclined to corrosion. It also omits liquified hydrogen, which is inconvenient to handle, but not much moreso than liquified methane.

universa1 5y ago

While a nice theory, this is not competitive in practice... The capital costs and loss in productivity result in about a 2 to 3 times lower profit per unit of land compared to full solar. Just put solar on the non-ideal fields (iirc about 4% of German AG area would be needed to cover electricity demand with solar)

ncmncm 5y ago
You miss the point that identically the same land is now producing two revenue streams, one year-round. And, that ag yield is increased. Fortunately, they don't need your approval. It is being done now. Japanese are leading.
ehnto 5y ago
It might not need to be 100% of fuel used, subsidizing the fuel supply would be enough I think. It would also allow those farms to claim some of that as carbon credits and other green certificates.

pjc50 5y ago

> doesn't need to be transported from a refinery Given how much cutting edge process chemistry is involved in this fuel manufacture, it will be a long time before it's available in small units, which will of course be more capital-intensive and less efficient than large units because that's how scaling works. It's far more likely this fuel will end up simply co-mingled with the global market and shipped all over the world from a few sites which are good for generation but not for direct consumption.

DennisP 5y ago
According to their "need for speed" page, their plan is to build factories producing units the size of shipping containers. They think they can have three of them by 2030, each churning out a quarter million units annually.
- pjc50 5y ago
  ... I'll file that under "believe it when I see it". It would be genuinely transformative of the world economy if it happened.
  - DennisP 5y ago
    Indeed it would. It certainly wouldn't be possible if they needed heat and pressure. See this part of the article: > Our Fuel Forges are similar in many ways to hydrogen electrolyzers, in that they consist of many layers of cells, each consisting of a cathode, an anode, and a separator. In an H2 Electrolyzer, the anode is where electrons are stripped from water, producing oxygen, and the cathode is where electrons are added to protons, producing hydrogen gas. In our system, the anode works the same way, but our cathode, in addition to making H2, also makes liquid fuels. Both systems have capital costs dominated by the costs of the electrochemical stacks. > This brings us to the issue of economies of scale. For high temperature / high pressure systems like Fischer Tropsch or e-methanol to gasoline (MTG), economies of scale mean large refinery installations that cost billions of dollars and years to build (and still don’t get to cost-competitive fuels). For modular, mobile systems like our Titan Fuel Forges, however, economies of scale mean mass manufacturing.

jabl 5y ago

> Fences made of double-sided solar panels mounted a bit more than tractor-width apart Er, tractors often tow implements that are significantly wider than the tractor itself.

ncmncm 5y ago
They can but are not obliged to.