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Direct quote ! “ We have this idea diversity is good, and diversity has many good effects, but diversity also makes things come apart for a large secular natio

by ginger2016 4y ago

Direct quote ! “ We have this idea diversity is good, and diversity has many good effects, but diversity also makes things come apart for a large secular nation like the United States what are the forces holding us together, what are the things blowing us apart, diversity makes group more creative when you have good norms..”

epgui 4y ago
I think rather than interpreting this charitably, as you probably should, you may be giving his text extra meaning beyond what he intended.
- ginger2016 4y ago
  I am sorry, I can’t interpret someone pining for “shared gods” charitably. We are a secular country that welcomes all beliefs.
  - unmole 4y ago
    FFS, he's describing the myths that traditionally were used to define tribes and talking about the challenges of unifying a diverse secular nation.
  - epgui 4y ago
    Neither I nor this other guy are denying that. I don’t think you understand the idea. Moreover, if you’re incapable of giving someone charitable interpretation, that’s a failure of your intellect, not of anyone else’s.
ginger2016 4y ago
He claims traditionally a country is held together by “shared gods, shared blood, and shared enemies”. What is he saying, the issue is, this is a multi-faith, multi-ethnic country? I say, Professor Haidt, the train has left this station, America has progressed, it is not going back to “shared blood” and “shared gods” anymore. You better get used to some diversity.
- unmole 4y ago
  > What is he saying, the issue is, this is a multi-faith, multi-ethnic country? He is not. Please don't post bad faith arguments. If you really think that is what he's saying, please work on your reading comprehension.
- vimy 4y ago
  Not literal faith. Otherwise he would have said God, not Gods. He means shared ideals and ideas relating to the nation itself. For example, the founders were shared Gods. Now a part of Americans thinks they were horrible racist people. It’s not something that bonds anymore. It’s the opposite now.
twh270 4y ago
That is not a direct quote. Your semi-quote "but diversity also makes things come apart for a large secular nation like the United States" is inaccurate and extremely misleading; Haidt clearly ends the sentence at "come apart", and you left off the "And so" starting the next sentence. The actual quote, starting at 9:20, with as much fidelity as I can muster: "We have this idea that umm... that diversity is good, and diversity has many good effects. But.. diversity also makes things come apart. And so for a large secular nation like the United States you have to look at what are the forces holding us together, what are the things blowing us apart. Now diversity makes [a] group more creative when you have good norms, when things are well structured. We have to think really carefully about how to get the benefit from America's diversity, but it's hard to do because if you critique it you could get in big trouble. Now in terms of what actually holds a country together, traditionally it's shared gods, shared blood, and shared enemies. That's what nations usually have used. So we have a challenge, and it is a great experiment, and when social media came in -- when everybody was on social media beginning around 2012, 2013 when it gets hyperviralized, umm, the ability to have any shared understanding of what we're doing shatters. Social media allows us to participate in microstories that kind of bubble up and are gone. There is no ability to have a common understanding of what we're doing. Not that we ever were all one nation and all on the same page. But there's a qualitative change when it's like... here's the story of the day, and.. and.. umm.. uhh.. so there's no possibility for shared stories in the age of social media, widely shared stories. Umm... uh... there's huge decline of trust, trust in each other and trust in institutions. And here I'm drawing on recent social science - uh, political science research showing that social media generally leads to a decline of trust. Social media's incredibly powerful for tearing things down. And that can be a good thing in a dictatorship. But it's very bad at building things up. And in an ailing democracy like ours where our institutions need to be improved not ripped apart, it generally has... has made things worse."
- ginger2016 4y ago
  Thank you for the whole transcript. I find the whole transcript very problematic. Especially the “shared gods” and “shared blood” part, does Professor Haidt really think this country was held together by “shared blood”? Is he that ignorant of America’s history?

epgui 4y ago

I think rather than interpreting this charitably, as you probably should, you may be giving his text extra meaning beyond what he intended.

ginger2016 4y ago
I am sorry, I can’t interpret someone pining for “shared gods” charitably. We are a secular country that welcomes all beliefs.
- unmole 4y ago
  FFS, he's describing the myths that traditionally were used to define tribes and talking about the challenges of unifying a diverse secular nation.
- epgui 4y ago
  Neither I nor this other guy are denying that. I don’t think you understand the idea. Moreover, if you’re incapable of giving someone charitable interpretation, that’s a failure of your intellect, not of anyone else’s.

ginger2016 4y ago

He claims traditionally a country is held together by “shared gods, shared blood, and shared enemies”. What is he saying, the issue is, this is a multi-faith, multi-ethnic country? I say, Professor Haidt, the train has left this station, America has progressed, it is not going back to “shared blood” and “shared gods” anymore. You better get used to some diversity.

unmole 4y ago
> What is he saying, the issue is, this is a multi-faith, multi-ethnic country? He is not. Please don't post bad faith arguments. If you really think that is what he's saying, please work on your reading comprehension.
vimy 4y ago
Not literal faith. Otherwise he would have said God, not Gods. He means shared ideals and ideas relating to the nation itself. For example, the founders were shared Gods. Now a part of Americans thinks they were horrible racist people. It’s not something that bonds anymore. It’s the opposite now.

twh270 4y ago

That is not a direct quote. Your semi-quote "but diversity also makes things come apart for a large secular nation like the United States" is inaccurate and extremely misleading; Haidt clearly ends the sentence at "come apart", and you left off the "And so" starting the next sentence. The actual quote, starting at 9:20, with as much fidelity as I can muster: "We have this idea that umm... that diversity is good, and diversity has many good effects. But.. diversity also makes things come apart. And so for a large secular nation like the United States you have to look at what are the forces holding us together, what are the things blowing us apart. Now diversity makes [a] group more creative when you have good norms, when things are well structured. We have to think really carefully about how to get the benefit from America's diversity, but it's hard to do because if you critique it you could get in big trouble. Now in terms of what actually holds a country together, traditionally it's shared gods, shared blood, and shared enemies. That's what nations usually have used. So we have a challenge, and it is a great experiment, and when social media came in -- when everybody was on social media beginning around 2012, 2013 when it gets hyperviralized, umm, the ability to have any shared understanding of what we're doing shatters. Social media allows us to participate in microstories that kind of bubble up and are gone. There is no ability to have a common understanding of what we're doing. Not that we ever were all one nation and all on the same page. But there's a qualitative change when it's like... here's the story of the day, and.. and.. umm.. uhh.. so there's no possibility for shared stories in the age of social media, widely shared stories. Umm... uh... there's huge decline of trust, trust in each other and trust in institutions. And here I'm drawing on recent social science - uh, political science research showing that social media generally leads to a decline of trust. Social media's incredibly powerful for tearing things down. And that can be a good thing in a dictatorship. But it's very bad at building things up. And in an ailing democracy like ours where our institutions need to be improved not ripped apart, it generally has... has made things worse."

ginger2016 4y ago
Thank you for the whole transcript. I find the whole transcript very problematic. Especially the “shared gods” and “shared blood” part, does Professor Haidt really think this country was held together by “shared blood”? Is he that ignorant of America’s history?