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But how does society decide a job’s usefulness in real life? How does this work? Edit: if you hire me for a job what do we need society for?

jltsiren 5y ago
I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. There are countless formal and informal mechanisms societies use for building consensus on various topics. Even this discussion is one of them. For example, people generally believe that hotels are useful. Because somebody must clean the rooms between the visits but it's not reasonable to expect the guests to do it, the society has decided that hotel housekeeping is a useful job. However, if we leave it to the market, housekeeping does not pay enough to support a good life. Because there is a permanent need for housekeeping, we as a society must make a choice. Either we choose that some hardworking people do not deserve a good life, or we try building mechanisms that aim to fix the deficiencies of the market. Universal basic income could be one of those mechanisms, but because they are means rather than goals, it's better to leave them to experts.
- foogazi 5y ago
  > For example, people generally believe that hotels are useful. When traveling, but if it’s too expensive they don’t stay there > Because somebody must clean the rooms between the visits but it's not reasonable to expect the guests to do it, the society has decided that hotel housekeeping is a useful job. For the right price- I would not stay at a $1,000/night hotel > However, if we leave it to the market, housekeeping does not pay enough to support a good life. The market is us - we decide we are not going to pay $300 a night at the Motel 6. > Either we choose that some hardworking people do not deserve a good life Why don’t we let the hard-working people decide were they want to work hard at ? > or we try building mechanisms that aim to fix the deficiencies of the market. You can stay at the Motel 6 and tip the staff $100 a night and fix the market
  - jltsiren 5y ago
    I was talking about the general case. Hotels are useful, because the world would be worse if hotels would not exist at all. If hotels exist, somebody must clean them. Even if any specific individual could choose to do something else, somebody must still do the job. The problem does not go away. The market does not always reflect societal preferences accurately. It's a well-known game theoretic idea that when people make individually rational choices, the outcome may be worse for everyone than what could be achieved with better coordination. Tipping individual workers is irrelevant here. While it may solve the problem for some people, it does not solve it for everyone at the same time.
    - foogazi 5y ago
      > If hotels exist, somebody must clean them. Even if any specific individual could choose to do something else, somebody must still do the job. The problem does not go away. That’s a problem for the hotel owner not society If the cost of hiring staff is too much they can do it themselves Just like you don’t hire cooks and maids for your house - depriving others of their $25 hourly wage + benefits, keeping the profits all for yourself
      - jltsiren 5y ago
        It's not a problem for hotel owners, because they can currently hire housekeeping staff at low wages. It could become a problem for the society, if we raise the minimum wage too high and then the market (people making individually rational choices) makes the situation worse for everyone. The real problem is that we as a society have tied a person's value as a human being to their wealth and income. We have collectively decided that if someone has no wealth and no marketable skills, they do not deserve a good life, no matter how hard they try. Many people want to change this, for everyone at the same time.

jltsiren 5y ago

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. There are countless formal and informal mechanisms societies use for building consensus on various topics. Even this discussion is one of them. For example, people generally believe that hotels are useful. Because somebody must clean the rooms between the visits but it's not reasonable to expect the guests to do it, the society has decided that hotel housekeeping is a useful job. However, if we leave it to the market, housekeeping does not pay enough to support a good life. Because there is a permanent need for housekeeping, we as a society must make a choice. Either we choose that some hardworking people do not deserve a good life, or we try building mechanisms that aim to fix the deficiencies of the market. Universal basic income could be one of those mechanisms, but because they are means rather than goals, it's better to leave them to experts.

foogazi 5y ago
> For example, people generally believe that hotels are useful. When traveling, but if it’s too expensive they don’t stay there > Because somebody must clean the rooms between the visits but it's not reasonable to expect the guests to do it, the society has decided that hotel housekeeping is a useful job. For the right price- I would not stay at a $1,000/night hotel > However, if we leave it to the market, housekeeping does not pay enough to support a good life. The market is us - we decide we are not going to pay $300 a night at the Motel 6. > Either we choose that some hardworking people do not deserve a good life Why don’t we let the hard-working people decide were they want to work hard at ? > or we try building mechanisms that aim to fix the deficiencies of the market. You can stay at the Motel 6 and tip the staff $100 a night and fix the market
- jltsiren 5y ago
  I was talking about the general case. Hotels are useful, because the world would be worse if hotels would not exist at all. If hotels exist, somebody must clean them. Even if any specific individual could choose to do something else, somebody must still do the job. The problem does not go away. The market does not always reflect societal preferences accurately. It's a well-known game theoretic idea that when people make individually rational choices, the outcome may be worse for everyone than what could be achieved with better coordination. Tipping individual workers is irrelevant here. While it may solve the problem for some people, it does not solve it for everyone at the same time.
  - foogazi 5y ago
    > If hotels exist, somebody must clean them. Even if any specific individual could choose to do something else, somebody must still do the job. The problem does not go away. That’s a problem for the hotel owner not society If the cost of hiring staff is too much they can do it themselves Just like you don’t hire cooks and maids for your house - depriving others of their $25 hourly wage + benefits, keeping the profits all for yourself
    - jltsiren 5y ago
      It's not a problem for hotel owners, because they can currently hire housekeeping staff at low wages. It could become a problem for the society, if we raise the minimum wage too high and then the market (people making individually rational choices) makes the situation worse for everyone. The real problem is that we as a society have tied a person's value as a human being to their wealth and income. We have collectively decided that if someone has no wealth and no marketable skills, they do not deserve a good life, no matter how hard they try. Many people want to change this, for everyone at the same time.