6 ms·

One of nerd's worst problems is that the games they play really deeply matter, that their pursuits can be fantastically stunningly valuable extrinsic & intrinsi

One of nerd's worst problems is that the games they play really deeply matter, that their pursuits can be fantastically stunningly valuable extrinsic & intrinsic pursuits. But there's so few people playing the good games, that commit to engaging the world as naked frankly & genuinely. This post preaches recognizing others game. But few people will ever have the capacity to genuinely recignize your game. Nerds: your power asymmetry will be horribly high, and you are just going to have to learn to live with it, with obvious & visible games forever trumping your deep game. Bruce Sterling had, in a reboot talk[1], an archetype he called high tech gothic. Advanced, wired to the nines, committed & dedicated, defended in position, but trapped alone in your castle too, with unwashed barbarian hordes ravaging the lands all about. Too real, over a decade ago & the world's just gotten worse & vastly more out of touch with it's real self/tech (eg Bill Gates & Obama being vocal frontmen for ignorant state-based authoritarianist information-control). There's no signs anything will ever get better, except your belief, your caring, your trying. I am so so so mixed here. This post is such a valuable lesson, such a needed recognition of the rest of the world, of seeing other's potential. And we need to see & believe, see the different games, appreciate each other. But nerds in particular get shit for respect (or such distant respect). Right now we land some big salaries (but Facebook has stopped hiring, winds change). But our game almost always comes last. Everyone else employs us, tells us what product we're building, tells us not to do a thing directly in front of us/simple because the priority is such and such. No one can play our game. Our game always comes last. High tech gothic. Welcome to earth. Good luck. Fight the good fight. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27443836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27443836

rubychill 5y ago
Is it power asymmetry or is it that nerd games are over-valued by those who play them? That was my takeaway from this article, that it's easy to see investment in hard skills as innately better than soft skills.
- iratewizard 5y ago
  Most likely the latter. I've seen a lot of people get fixated on games that are deeply flawed or straight up unfun. Yet, they find the game very appealing.
  - MonaroVXR 5y ago
    What games? I'm genuinely interested.
- rektide 5y ago
  It depends but most nerds I see arent playing power games at all, they're playing coop. Im not in SV & maybe that has something to do with why I cant recognize the shade you are throwing, dont see nearly the ego difficulties you claim. I spoke about power imbalance, but I saw it less about as having & wielding power, & really about understanding & due respect, about escaping our High Tech Gothic & living among the earth. Yes there is a power balance. But being able to simply be recognized, seen, having anyone else out there who can rate, understand your game, much less critique or review: some games are overt, visible noticeable, but the world has only superficial stupid indicators to gauge nerds on. They literally dont have the capacity to understand the nerds game. That's high tech gothic, thats what nerds have to adapt to & thrive within.
  - switchbak 5y ago
    "They literally dont have the capacity to understand the nerds game". That's some primo tech elitism right there. I agree with the parent, that it's an interesting tale about waking up to the fact that others have been optimizing for other goals in life, and in many cases those make a ton of sense, perhaps even moreso than his science game. Your take on this however, seems to be some kind of idea that no one else can gauge or judge the depths of your contributions, etc. In fact I'm not completely sure what you're saying, but it appears to be almost the opposite of the original article. I've had my time of thinking what I do is especially valuable and unique. Then I grew up and realized we all (well, many of us) contribute to this world in our own way. A little humility goes a long way.
    - rektide 5y ago
      > Your take on this however, seems to be some kind of idea that no one else can gauge or judge the depths of your contributions, etc. I do think we all have ways we want to be perceieved, things about ourselves we want to be recognized, strengths, and that there is a huge massive range of how visible/over/obvious and esoteric/exoteric and other dimensioms that goverm how visible these attributes/behaviors/characteristics/accomishmemts are. > In fact I'm not completely sure what you're saying, but it appears to be almost the opposite of the original article. I agree with the article. The article is telling nerds to recognize & acknowledge other people on their grounds, to look generally for good, in many forms. > I've had my time of thinking what I do is especially valuable and unique. Then I grew up and realized we all (well, many of us) contribute to this world in our own way. Picking up where I left off, my point is that some games are easier to understand than others. Im not trying to make any value judgement. I havent said being esoteric made anyone better. I am trying to communicate how isolating & alienating the experice can be when it feels like others done understand your games. When other people perpetually see the score differently. This post is communicating among other things some straightforward & overt things we can look for in others. Nerds can present as incredible, powerful, respectable people sometimes, they can be appreciated for their game, sometimes. But it can also be readily apparent & hard when it becomes clear people dont really know the score. It can be isolating seeing only superficial respect, or seeing what feels like uncomprehending or undeserved respect given to ourselves or others. Finding real peers, who are fit to judge & assess, is a real life challenge. For everyone. And especially for those a little more outside the mainstream, for the nerds. My posts here are just an attempt at fair warning, about what we can expect, about how hard it all too likely will be to find people who can appreciate your game. You very good excellent people's game especially. If anything I think what Im saying amplifies the need for humility & mutual respect, & yes, some camraderie among technical peers.
- AlchemistCamp 5y ago
  I used to ponder this question at tower records since I had a few extremely nerdy friends in high school. In the decades since, history has been a continual story of nerds steamrolling less nerdy incumbents.
scubbo 5y ago
> nerds in particular get shit for respect I have no idea what world you're living in, but it's not mine.
- flappyeagle 5y ago
  He's right about this - nerds get a lot of money these days, but no respect.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    Some of the world most famous people are nerds. The richest people in the world are nerds. Elon is 100% a nerd, and he can basically get any Hollywood star he wants. I'm a nerd, and I consider myself pretty successful in life. I totally agree with the other poster that your view on the world is very different.
    - whynaut 5y ago
      You really believe Elon could get “any Hollywood star he wants?” He is rich and famous, but considered a weirdo at best.
    - goodpoint 5y ago
      > Elon is 100% a nerd According to what metrics?
- rektide 5y ago
  From an organizational level, we're 98% regarded as human resources for management's usage. From a personal level, few people have the capability to appreciate what we care about. They can measure us with yard sticks & jira points & dollars-of-valued-delivered, but none of these outsiders can adopt our value system & see us as we see ourselves, none can rate us by what matters to us & how we go about & care about our lots. This post is about opening one's view & recognizing other peoples game. Im contending nerds find few who can rate their game, see what they're really playing at, what real success is & what matters to them. Who else out there has hard really hard to understand games, has a value-system alien to others? That is the defining question to me. Often we see mis-allocated respect too. Nerds given undeserved respect, sourced in shallow understanding, undermining our trust in the world's sensibility & discernment. The "cowboy coders" and 10x discourse revolves around these outsider/alien/unsensing values being used to determine respect & rank, causing endless offense & distrust & alienation to nerds, confirming to us we are alone in chasing our good game. The respect you consider is shallow & exterior & the respect we want & that matters to us is often trapped & esoteric. Real success - often yes of the business - often derives from what others cannot see.
flappyeagle 5y ago
You can always decide what to build yourself. Decide your priorities. If you build some thing people want, then great.
- rektide 5y ago
  Tailscale today announced $100M in funding. This feels like what it takes these days, which is terrifying to me. I have no idea what runway that buys but my gods, it is just so epically hard & society has so so so little safety net & support for doing good things, making things happen. Even basic plans like Build Back Better childcare get wrecked... by Democrats. You're so right but it feels so hopeless & bleak & impossible to try to do good & live at the same time.
AussieWog93 5y ago
I'd almost believe this before I started my PhD. In reality, I think the most common academic/"nerd" game, by a long shot is "acquire as much useless/non-actionable/niche knowledge as possible, so that you can rub other peoples' noses in the fact that they don't possess said knowledge". With very few exceptions, it's not "the long game", a "good fight" or anything else worth valorising - it's lonely, miserable fucks who are mad that other people are happy.
- Sixsixsixtyfour 5y ago

rubychill 5y ago

Is it power asymmetry or is it that nerd games are over-valued by those who play them? That was my takeaway from this article, that it's easy to see investment in hard skills as innately better than soft skills.

iratewizard 5y ago
Most likely the latter. I've seen a lot of people get fixated on games that are deeply flawed or straight up unfun. Yet, they find the game very appealing.
- MonaroVXR 5y ago
  What games? I'm genuinely interested.
rektide 5y ago
It depends but most nerds I see arent playing power games at all, they're playing coop. Im not in SV & maybe that has something to do with why I cant recognize the shade you are throwing, dont see nearly the ego difficulties you claim. I spoke about power imbalance, but I saw it less about as having & wielding power, & really about understanding & due respect, about escaping our High Tech Gothic & living among the earth. Yes there is a power balance. But being able to simply be recognized, seen, having anyone else out there who can rate, understand your game, much less critique or review: some games are overt, visible noticeable, but the world has only superficial stupid indicators to gauge nerds on. They literally dont have the capacity to understand the nerds game. That's high tech gothic, thats what nerds have to adapt to & thrive within.
- switchbak 5y ago
  "They literally dont have the capacity to understand the nerds game". That's some primo tech elitism right there. I agree with the parent, that it's an interesting tale about waking up to the fact that others have been optimizing for other goals in life, and in many cases those make a ton of sense, perhaps even moreso than his science game. Your take on this however, seems to be some kind of idea that no one else can gauge or judge the depths of your contributions, etc. In fact I'm not completely sure what you're saying, but it appears to be almost the opposite of the original article. I've had my time of thinking what I do is especially valuable and unique. Then I grew up and realized we all (well, many of us) contribute to this world in our own way. A little humility goes a long way.
  - rektide 5y ago
    > Your take on this however, seems to be some kind of idea that no one else can gauge or judge the depths of your contributions, etc. I do think we all have ways we want to be perceieved, things about ourselves we want to be recognized, strengths, and that there is a huge massive range of how visible/over/obvious and esoteric/exoteric and other dimensioms that goverm how visible these attributes/behaviors/characteristics/accomishmemts are. > In fact I'm not completely sure what you're saying, but it appears to be almost the opposite of the original article. I agree with the article. The article is telling nerds to recognize & acknowledge other people on their grounds, to look generally for good, in many forms. > I've had my time of thinking what I do is especially valuable and unique. Then I grew up and realized we all (well, many of us) contribute to this world in our own way. Picking up where I left off, my point is that some games are easier to understand than others. Im not trying to make any value judgement. I havent said being esoteric made anyone better. I am trying to communicate how isolating & alienating the experice can be when it feels like others done understand your games. When other people perpetually see the score differently. This post is communicating among other things some straightforward & overt things we can look for in others. Nerds can present as incredible, powerful, respectable people sometimes, they can be appreciated for their game, sometimes. But it can also be readily apparent & hard when it becomes clear people dont really know the score. It can be isolating seeing only superficial respect, or seeing what feels like uncomprehending or undeserved respect given to ourselves or others. Finding real peers, who are fit to judge & assess, is a real life challenge. For everyone. And especially for those a little more outside the mainstream, for the nerds. My posts here are just an attempt at fair warning, about what we can expect, about how hard it all too likely will be to find people who can appreciate your game. You very good excellent people's game especially. If anything I think what Im saying amplifies the need for humility & mutual respect, & yes, some camraderie among technical peers.
AlchemistCamp 5y ago
I used to ponder this question at tower records since I had a few extremely nerdy friends in high school. In the decades since, history has been a continual story of nerds steamrolling less nerdy incumbents.

scubbo 5y ago

> nerds in particular get shit for respect I have no idea what world you're living in, but it's not mine.

flappyeagle 5y ago
He's right about this - nerds get a lot of money these days, but no respect.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  Some of the world most famous people are nerds. The richest people in the world are nerds. Elon is 100% a nerd, and he can basically get any Hollywood star he wants. I'm a nerd, and I consider myself pretty successful in life. I totally agree with the other poster that your view on the world is very different.
  - whynaut 5y ago
    You really believe Elon could get “any Hollywood star he wants?” He is rich and famous, but considered a weirdo at best.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    > Elon is 100% a nerd According to what metrics?
rektide 5y ago
From an organizational level, we're 98% regarded as human resources for management's usage. From a personal level, few people have the capability to appreciate what we care about. They can measure us with yard sticks & jira points & dollars-of-valued-delivered, but none of these outsiders can adopt our value system & see us as we see ourselves, none can rate us by what matters to us & how we go about & care about our lots. This post is about opening one's view & recognizing other peoples game. Im contending nerds find few who can rate their game, see what they're really playing at, what real success is & what matters to them. Who else out there has hard really hard to understand games, has a value-system alien to others? That is the defining question to me. Often we see mis-allocated respect too. Nerds given undeserved respect, sourced in shallow understanding, undermining our trust in the world's sensibility & discernment. The "cowboy coders" and 10x discourse revolves around these outsider/alien/unsensing values being used to determine respect & rank, causing endless offense & distrust & alienation to nerds, confirming to us we are alone in chasing our good game. The respect you consider is shallow & exterior & the respect we want & that matters to us is often trapped & esoteric. Real success - often yes of the business - often derives from what others cannot see.

flappyeagle 5y ago

You can always decide what to build yourself. Decide your priorities. If you build some thing people want, then great.

rektide 5y ago
Tailscale today announced $100M in funding. This feels like what it takes these days, which is terrifying to me. I have no idea what runway that buys but my gods, it is just so epically hard & society has so so so little safety net & support for doing good things, making things happen. Even basic plans like Build Back Better childcare get wrecked... by Democrats. You're so right but it feels so hopeless & bleak & impossible to try to do good & live at the same time.

AussieWog93 5y ago

I'd almost believe this before I started my PhD. In reality, I think the most common academic/"nerd" game, by a long shot is "acquire as much useless/non-actionable/niche knowledge as possible, so that you can rub other peoples' noses in the fact that they don't possess said knowledge". With very few exceptions, it's not "the long game", a "good fight" or anything else worth valorising - it's lonely, miserable fucks who are mad that other people are happy.

Sixsixsixtyfour 5y ago