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Average transaction fee on bitcoin is about $1.50 USD which is low for bitcoin. If you use a second layer you can only transact on some tiny channel, you still

Average transaction fee on bitcoin is about $1.50 USD which is low for bitcoin. If you use a second layer you can only transact on some tiny channel, you still have to sync with the main chain. A second layer is very good for sending one person 10,000 small payments, which is not a real use case. https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html#3m https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees... Don't forget that bitcoin still has the throughput of a dialup modem. https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/size-btc.html#1y https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/size-btc.html#1y

randomhodler84 5y ago
That site is overestimating the costs, people bring that report up frequently. https://mempool.space https://mempool.space is a better indication of cost. I only ever pay 1sat/vbyte (min cost) myself, and have for years. I am able to wait a few hours to get such low fees if required. Real time payments are to be done via Lightning network. The network is reasonable congested today so the high priority tx is 12sat/vbyte or 67 cents. That “dial up modem” seems fine. We can look at incremental changes if the need arises. It doesn’t today.
- CyberDildonics 5y ago
  It isn't an estimate, it is taking data directly from the chain. Real time payments are to be done via Lightning network Real time between two people on the exact same tiny side chain with no one else on it. This is not the same as people sending a transaction to each other on the actual bitcoin chain. The network is reasonable congested today You can see in the chart I linked that it is not. That “dial up modem” seems fine. We can look at incremental changes if the need arises. It doesn’t today. It is not fine. That's why transaction fees have spiked in the past, that's cheap transactions no longer exist, that's why there is an awkward second layer that few use and no one wants. It has been 12 years and every other currency has proved that restricting a chain to a few kilobytes per second is ridiculous.
  - randomhodler84 5y ago
    Ja, people are overpaying. I’m telling you what the deal is, the minimum fees, and what I pay. I don’t care what other people are doing, I can only tell you my experience and the metrics that speak to it. What are you advocating? 10MB Bitcoin blocks? When did you last use Bitcoin? LN is the fastest growing cryptocurrency network by nodes. Lots of people are using it. I know it doesn’t fit the big block Bcasher story, but we stopped listening to those fools in 2017.
    - CyberDildonics 5y ago
      people are overpaying I'm showing you what people are paying. It's the truth, nothing more. 10MB Bitcoin blocks That would be about 16KB/s LN is the fastest growing cryptocurrency network by nodes. Lots of people are using it. The difference is that I backed up what I said with real information. I know it doesn’t fit the big block Bcasher story, but we stopped listening to those fools in 2017. Every cryptocurrency has more throughput than bitcoin. There is no reason not to. You can throw around labels and propaganda nonsense, but there is no technical reason to restrict a cryptocurrency to the throughput of a 28.8 modem. It destroys all the reasons for a cryptocurrency to exist in the first place. The real question is why someone would use an awkward second layer that completely fragments who you can send and receive from when every other cryptocurrency works without it because they aren't limited to 1 KB/s. An office laser printer can print characters on paper at a higher throughput than 1 KB/s. It is a bizarre and absurd world where a currency that is supposed to work for everyone pragmatically allows everyone in the world a single transaction for their entire lifetime.
      - randomhodler84 5y ago
        Because it doesn’t matter. It works. Sometimes you don’t need to be the most cutting edge technology solution to work as intended. One may argue that Bitcoin has taken too conservative an approach, and while this argument can have merit, I would suggest this is all part of the value proposition of the protocol and by design. There are many technical reasons for constraints like block size, block time, tx complexity, etc. most of these are for an availability or reliability metric. It is really important that low powered hardware can run a node if it is to be universal. So far unbounded solutions have presented fragile constructions on unproven math; low reliability with multiple hours long outages; very high compute and storage requirements for node hosting. We use a so called awkward second layer because we have realized that maybe not every tx needs to be recorded for all eternity for all to see in a data structure. Lightning provides a similar value exchange of satoshi like BTC mainnet txs, with better privacy and lower fees.

randomhodler84 5y ago

That site is overestimating the costs, people bring that report up frequently. https://mempool.space https://mempool.space is a better indication of cost. I only ever pay 1sat/vbyte (min cost) myself, and have for years. I am able to wait a few hours to get such low fees if required. Real time payments are to be done via Lightning network. The network is reasonable congested today so the high priority tx is 12sat/vbyte or 67 cents. That “dial up modem” seems fine. We can look at incremental changes if the need arises. It doesn’t today.

CyberDildonics 5y ago
It isn't an estimate, it is taking data directly from the chain. Real time payments are to be done via Lightning network Real time between two people on the exact same tiny side chain with no one else on it. This is not the same as people sending a transaction to each other on the actual bitcoin chain. The network is reasonable congested today You can see in the chart I linked that it is not. That “dial up modem” seems fine. We can look at incremental changes if the need arises. It doesn’t today. It is not fine. That's why transaction fees have spiked in the past, that's cheap transactions no longer exist, that's why there is an awkward second layer that few use and no one wants. It has been 12 years and every other currency has proved that restricting a chain to a few kilobytes per second is ridiculous.
- randomhodler84 5y ago
  Ja, people are overpaying. I’m telling you what the deal is, the minimum fees, and what I pay. I don’t care what other people are doing, I can only tell you my experience and the metrics that speak to it. What are you advocating? 10MB Bitcoin blocks? When did you last use Bitcoin? LN is the fastest growing cryptocurrency network by nodes. Lots of people are using it. I know it doesn’t fit the big block Bcasher story, but we stopped listening to those fools in 2017.
  - CyberDildonics 5y ago
    people are overpaying I'm showing you what people are paying. It's the truth, nothing more. 10MB Bitcoin blocks That would be about 16KB/s LN is the fastest growing cryptocurrency network by nodes. Lots of people are using it. The difference is that I backed up what I said with real information. I know it doesn’t fit the big block Bcasher story, but we stopped listening to those fools in 2017. Every cryptocurrency has more throughput than bitcoin. There is no reason not to. You can throw around labels and propaganda nonsense, but there is no technical reason to restrict a cryptocurrency to the throughput of a 28.8 modem. It destroys all the reasons for a cryptocurrency to exist in the first place. The real question is why someone would use an awkward second layer that completely fragments who you can send and receive from when every other cryptocurrency works without it because they aren't limited to 1 KB/s. An office laser printer can print characters on paper at a higher throughput than 1 KB/s. It is a bizarre and absurd world where a currency that is supposed to work for everyone pragmatically allows everyone in the world a single transaction for their entire lifetime.
    - randomhodler84 5y ago
      Because it doesn’t matter. It works. Sometimes you don’t need to be the most cutting edge technology solution to work as intended. One may argue that Bitcoin has taken too conservative an approach, and while this argument can have merit, I would suggest this is all part of the value proposition of the protocol and by design. There are many technical reasons for constraints like block size, block time, tx complexity, etc. most of these are for an availability or reliability metric. It is really important that low powered hardware can run a node if it is to be universal. So far unbounded solutions have presented fragile constructions on unproven math; low reliability with multiple hours long outages; very high compute and storage requirements for node hosting. We use a so called awkward second layer because we have realized that maybe not every tx needs to be recorded for all eternity for all to see in a data structure. Lightning provides a similar value exchange of satoshi like BTC mainnet txs, with better privacy and lower fees.