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> If your business cannot pay a living wage, it should not exist Says who? There are countless people on this site who run businesses that don't even pay them

> If your business cannot pay a living wage, it should not exist Says who? There are countless people on this site who run businesses that don't even pay themselves. Are they under moral obligation to shut down their own business? The majority of minimum wage work is done as supplemental income to a household (teenagers or spouses or partner). There would be a large subset of people who would not qualify for social safety programs but who would not be better off without these positions.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
> Says who? Voters and dollars spent on political speech. > The majority of minimum wage work is done as supplemental income to a household (teenagers or spouses or partner). The characteristics of lowest wage earners does not justify underpaying labor. It is an excuse by business to underpay.
- legitster 5y ago
  I worked for 4 years as a merchandiser (to this day one of my favorite jobs). I made $14.25 an hour for driving around to stores and "facing" chips. I would basically clean up the chip aisle for the chip company so it looked nice and people would buy more chips. It's hard to imagine that job makes any sense at $25 an hour. This wasn't a case where I was being underpaid for my labor. There is only so much value a job like that is ever going to create, and at a certain point it doesn't make sense to employee people doing it anymore.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > at a certain point it doesn't make sense to employee people doing it anymore I’m honestly convinced a growing slice of America sees employment as inherently oppressive and undignified, and so yes, believes you would have preferred unemployment to working.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      >I’m honestly convinced a growing slice of America sees employment as inherently oppressive and undignified The problem is that this slice mostly isn't the unemployed but people far from it. This is yet another societal problem where people are telling other people what's good for them and would probably be solved if people put their money where their mouth is.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - prawn 5y ago
    Was a part of that job being enjoyable coming from the fact that you weren't interacting with customers? Low pressure, hard to muck up, not dealing with disgruntled and abusive customers, etc. My wife has talked about enjoying the merchandising aspect of her early jobs for a bakery and winery.
    - legitster 5y ago
      I actually like customer interaction, but it was the first job where I got to self direct. Drive around - listen to audiobooks or music. Clock out and take a nap when I felt like it. Good times.
- rank0 5y ago
  > > Says who? > Voters and dollars spent on political speech. Pretty flimsy argument. It appears that the voters and funded political speech have actually decided the opposite. There is no $25 minimum wage. If we accept your assertion that voters are the moral authority, that implies the current 7.5~ rate is fair.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  counterpoint, it isn't underpaying. it is the market rate. >Voters and dollars spent on political speech. If the dollars go the other way, will you change your opinion?
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  If the voters support this then why don't we have a $25 / hour minimum wage?
exdsq 5y ago
> The majority of minimum wage work is done as supplemental income to a household (teenagers or spouses or partner). Is this actually true?
- legitster 5y ago
  It kinda depends on how you slice it. There are 60 million Americans in "low wage" families, of which more than half of the income comes from minimum wage jobs: https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/research-publications/working-poor-families-in-america/ https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/research-publications/w... But for the most part, minimum wage workers are young white women: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-minimum-wage/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-m...
leet_thow 5y ago
I know, these armchair economists ITT speak with such certitude about a complex system rife with unintended consequences.
- legitster 5y ago
  To be fair, real economists aren't much more help these days.
dredmorbius 5y ago
Prices pay the cost of inputs. The inputs of a business are labour, materials, and capital. A wage pays the support, training, risk, and trust costs of labour. And if that wage falls below those costs, then labour cannot be sustained. Given numerous market and power asymmetries, it's often possible to impose lower-than-living wages by shifting risks and costs to labour. A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more, otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation. Adam Smith actually writes on this extensively in Wealth of Nations, with insights that remain valid over 240 years later. Which answers your initial question. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26127620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26127620 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/ https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/ http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/smith-an-inquiry-into-the-nature-and-causes-of-the-wealth-of-nations-cannan-ed-vol-1#lf0206-01_head_052 http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/smith-an-inquiry-into-the-...

toomuchtodo 5y ago

> Says who? Voters and dollars spent on political speech. > The majority of minimum wage work is done as supplemental income to a household (teenagers or spouses or partner). The characteristics of lowest wage earners does not justify underpaying labor. It is an excuse by business to underpay.

legitster 5y ago
I worked for 4 years as a merchandiser (to this day one of my favorite jobs). I made $14.25 an hour for driving around to stores and "facing" chips. I would basically clean up the chip aisle for the chip company so it looked nice and people would buy more chips. It's hard to imagine that job makes any sense at $25 an hour. This wasn't a case where I was being underpaid for my labor. There is only so much value a job like that is ever going to create, and at a certain point it doesn't make sense to employee people doing it anymore.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > at a certain point it doesn't make sense to employee people doing it anymore I’m honestly convinced a growing slice of America sees employment as inherently oppressive and undignified, and so yes, believes you would have preferred unemployment to working.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    >I’m honestly convinced a growing slice of America sees employment as inherently oppressive and undignified The problem is that this slice mostly isn't the unemployed but people far from it. This is yet another societal problem where people are telling other people what's good for them and would probably be solved if people put their money where their mouth is.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- prawn 5y ago
  Was a part of that job being enjoyable coming from the fact that you weren't interacting with customers? Low pressure, hard to muck up, not dealing with disgruntled and abusive customers, etc. My wife has talked about enjoying the merchandising aspect of her early jobs for a bakery and winery.
  - legitster 5y ago
    I actually like customer interaction, but it was the first job where I got to self direct. Drive around - listen to audiobooks or music. Clock out and take a nap when I felt like it. Good times.
rank0 5y ago
> > Says who? > Voters and dollars spent on political speech. Pretty flimsy argument. It appears that the voters and funded political speech have actually decided the opposite. There is no $25 minimum wage. If we accept your assertion that voters are the moral authority, that implies the current 7.5~ rate is fair.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
counterpoint, it isn't underpaying. it is the market rate. >Voters and dollars spent on political speech. If the dollars go the other way, will you change your opinion?
_-david-_ 5y ago
If the voters support this then why don't we have a $25 / hour minimum wage?

exdsq 5y ago

> The majority of minimum wage work is done as supplemental income to a household (teenagers or spouses or partner). Is this actually true?

legitster 5y ago
It kinda depends on how you slice it. There are 60 million Americans in "low wage" families, of which more than half of the income comes from minimum wage jobs: https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/research-publications/working-poor-families-in-america/ https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/research-publications/w... But for the most part, minimum wage workers are young white women: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-minimum-wage/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/08/who-makes-m...

leet_thow 5y ago

I know, these armchair economists ITT speak with such certitude about a complex system rife with unintended consequences.

legitster 5y ago
To be fair, real economists aren't much more help these days.

dredmorbius 5y ago

Prices pay the cost of inputs. The inputs of a business are labour, materials, and capital. A wage pays the support, training, risk, and trust costs of labour. And if that wage falls below those costs, then labour cannot be sustained. Given numerous market and power asymmetries, it's often possible to impose lower-than-living wages by shifting risks and costs to labour. A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more, otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation. Adam Smith actually writes on this extensively in Wealth of Nations, with insights that remain valid over 240 years later. Which answers your initial question. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26127620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26127620 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/ https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/ http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/smith-an-inquiry-into-the-nature-and-causes-of-the-wealth-of-nations-cannan-ed-vol-1#lf0206-01_head_052 http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/smith-an-inquiry-into-the-...