5 ms·

Can't speak to Google, but I can say that having ICs write their own packets has been hugely enabling for me at other companies. It means their success isn't re

Can't speak to Google, but I can say that having ICs write their own packets has been hugely enabling for me at other companies. It means their success isn't reliant solely on implicit visibility of their work by me (which in turn meant I either had to maintain visibility on everything to the nth degree, get everyone to give constant feedback on each other, or fail to recognize their successes). I still come in and help consolidate and tweak it (I ask for a brag sheet from them that fits the packet format), with a 1-on-1 or three to ensure any questions I have get answered, and that we're aligned on the message, but taking it off my plate was -huge-.

metadat 4y ago
As stated in TFA and throughout this thread, moving the burden to the ICs means they will be incentivized to focus on Promo Packet instead of real work. No offense intended, but in your comment it comes off a bit selfish and bears the hallmarks of a classic archetype of terrible manager. I'd never willingly work for you. Being in management isn't for everyone, it's a people-focused domain. The whole job is about supporting the team and setting things up for successful outcomes. There is nothing wrong with being an individual contributor. If your organization limits how far ICs can go, take this as a sign of toxicity and consider finding a higher quality organization to join.
- engineeringwoke 4y ago
  It's hard to believe that someone can write these sentences based solely on the OP's statement. You have no idea who this person is.
  - samhw 4y ago
    Some people think that if they look down hard enough at someone else, they can lift themselves up. Especially if that 'someone else' is someone clearly high-status by an agreed standard (which 'senior software engineer at Google' undoubtedly is, on this forum, no matter what we tell ourselves). So the GP comes on here, sharing a perfectly nice and candid opinion, and our friend sees the chance of a lifetime ("terrible manager", "would never work under you", "management isn't for everyone", "find a higher-quality organisation", etc). Simples.
- lostcolony 4y ago
  Hey, agree to disagree on basically every point you make. But, just to provide some context you're missing, I had someone promoted the last promo cycle without any mention of features or new products in her packet. It was entirely support work, tackling tech debt, etc, all of which was stuff she personally was passionate about, and which had led to her being passed over for promotion -for years- prior to my managing the team. The incentive I'm working to create is "document your successes so we can ensure they're visible", not "focus on work that is by its nature highly visible", and, yes, definitely not "ignore the visibility of your work and rely entirely on your manager instead". It's no different than "maintain a brag sheet", except that I want them to be aware how that brag sheet feeds into the actual promo packet, and provides a common place for us to connect and discuss. If that means you'd never work for me...okay.
  - metadat 4y ago
    There is no single correct take, and I appreciate you filling in more of your perspective on the matter. I'd be curious to understand what exactly you feel my points were, and why you think differently. I can't help but feel like I must be missing something or misunderstanding your comment. Fortunately we're unlikely to ever collide in real life :). Again, I mean no disrespect. Genuinely would like to understand your point and see how it maps to higher overall team health and better output.
    - lostcolony 4y ago
      Sure - >> moving the burden to the ICs means they will be incentivized to focus on Promo Packet instead of real work Such has not been the case. In fact, I've had to repeatedly remind people to add things to their promo packet. The point is that documenting successes as they happen means they get to own their own visibility; I've walked into multiple teams where people chafed at being passed over, because their past managers didn't have suitable visibility on their successes, and so while the IC was like "I have achieved all these amazing things!", the manager was like "I can't make a strong enough case for them", and the net result was no promotion and poor morale. To fix that, I could either insert myself into everything to know who is doing what (slowing everything down, taking away their feelings of autonomy, and taking up all my time in doing so), and still risk missing things, or I can ask individuals to maintain a brag sheet that I can then rework into something to submit at promo time. Every task has value on a promo packet now, not just those leadership cares about/remembers, and in practice it has meant people take work that grows and challenges them, rather than just work that has innately high visibility. >> your comment you come off a bit selfish and bear the hallmarks of a classic archetype of terrible manager I mean, you're entitled to your own read on it, but in my book a terrible manager is someone who insists on inserting themselves into every little thing rather than trusting their team, giving them autonomy, and instead spending their time looking for ways for the team to function better, while clearing out people/organization/process obstacles. I've had multiple people say I'm the best manager they've ever had, as well as one person memorably fighting back tears when I told them I'd gotten them promoted (with a packet they filled out, then I reworked, as mentioned above) after years of being passed over for doing work that wasn't high visibility. You mean no disrespect/no offense you say, but that's a hell of a follow up, that I 'come off as selfish and bear the hallmarks of a class archetype of a terrible manager'. I'm not sure how to say this politely, but if you want people to engage with you, you really need to learn how to not come across as offensive; just saying you don't mean to be doesn't really cut it. >> The whole job is about supporting the team and setting things up for successful outcomes. There is nothing wrong with being an individual contributor. If your organization limits how far ICs can go, take this as a sign of toxicity and consider finding a higher quality organization to join. All of this feels very much a non-sequitor; I have no idea what I said that you think this runs counter to (since I agree with every word of it), and so I disagree with the implication that this is a relevant argument.
- dang 4y ago
  Can you please make your substantive points without crossing into personal attack? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - metadat 4y ago
    I did try to word it in a neutral way, but I'll try harder in the future. Thanks for the feedback.
- 8note 4y ago
  In a manager driven promo process, do you want gp in charge of whether you're promoted or not? Thats a benefit to having ICs run their promo process. Generally, I think freedom to have anyone drive an ICs promo process is better than forcing it to be one group or another. The IC might be best for it, or the manager might. Regardless of who it is, the IC can work at gaming the system, that's just the nature of systems and abuse
thumbsup-_- 4y ago
I did my own promo packet at a large tech company and it was the most depressing, demoralizing experience I ever had. The packet had 10's of things mentioned in it to provide evidence for and I felt I have done 2-3 big projects and I'm mentioning same thing for every line item but that was because we don't produce one line item worth of evidence in one project. Eng promotions at large tech companies are the most de-humanizing, de-moralizing things ever. I got promoted but I felt my morale took a huge dip after starting promo process as compared to before.

metadat 4y ago

As stated in TFA and throughout this thread, moving the burden to the ICs means they will be incentivized to focus on Promo Packet instead of real work. No offense intended, but in your comment it comes off a bit selfish and bears the hallmarks of a classic archetype of terrible manager. I'd never willingly work for you. Being in management isn't for everyone, it's a people-focused domain. The whole job is about supporting the team and setting things up for successful outcomes. There is nothing wrong with being an individual contributor. If your organization limits how far ICs can go, take this as a sign of toxicity and consider finding a higher quality organization to join.

engineeringwoke 4y ago
It's hard to believe that someone can write these sentences based solely on the OP's statement. You have no idea who this person is.
- samhw 4y ago
  Some people think that if they look down hard enough at someone else, they can lift themselves up. Especially if that 'someone else' is someone clearly high-status by an agreed standard (which 'senior software engineer at Google' undoubtedly is, on this forum, no matter what we tell ourselves). So the GP comes on here, sharing a perfectly nice and candid opinion, and our friend sees the chance of a lifetime ("terrible manager", "would never work under you", "management isn't for everyone", "find a higher-quality organisation", etc). Simples.
lostcolony 4y ago
Hey, agree to disagree on basically every point you make. But, just to provide some context you're missing, I had someone promoted the last promo cycle without any mention of features or new products in her packet. It was entirely support work, tackling tech debt, etc, all of which was stuff she personally was passionate about, and which had led to her being passed over for promotion -for years- prior to my managing the team. The incentive I'm working to create is "document your successes so we can ensure they're visible", not "focus on work that is by its nature highly visible", and, yes, definitely not "ignore the visibility of your work and rely entirely on your manager instead". It's no different than "maintain a brag sheet", except that I want them to be aware how that brag sheet feeds into the actual promo packet, and provides a common place for us to connect and discuss. If that means you'd never work for me...okay.
- metadat 4y ago
  There is no single correct take, and I appreciate you filling in more of your perspective on the matter. I'd be curious to understand what exactly you feel my points were, and why you think differently. I can't help but feel like I must be missing something or misunderstanding your comment. Fortunately we're unlikely to ever collide in real life :). Again, I mean no disrespect. Genuinely would like to understand your point and see how it maps to higher overall team health and better output.
  - lostcolony 4y ago
    Sure - >> moving the burden to the ICs means they will be incentivized to focus on Promo Packet instead of real work Such has not been the case. In fact, I've had to repeatedly remind people to add things to their promo packet. The point is that documenting successes as they happen means they get to own their own visibility; I've walked into multiple teams where people chafed at being passed over, because their past managers didn't have suitable visibility on their successes, and so while the IC was like "I have achieved all these amazing things!", the manager was like "I can't make a strong enough case for them", and the net result was no promotion and poor morale. To fix that, I could either insert myself into everything to know who is doing what (slowing everything down, taking away their feelings of autonomy, and taking up all my time in doing so), and still risk missing things, or I can ask individuals to maintain a brag sheet that I can then rework into something to submit at promo time. Every task has value on a promo packet now, not just those leadership cares about/remembers, and in practice it has meant people take work that grows and challenges them, rather than just work that has innately high visibility. >> your comment you come off a bit selfish and bear the hallmarks of a classic archetype of terrible manager I mean, you're entitled to your own read on it, but in my book a terrible manager is someone who insists on inserting themselves into every little thing rather than trusting their team, giving them autonomy, and instead spending their time looking for ways for the team to function better, while clearing out people/organization/process obstacles. I've had multiple people say I'm the best manager they've ever had, as well as one person memorably fighting back tears when I told them I'd gotten them promoted (with a packet they filled out, then I reworked, as mentioned above) after years of being passed over for doing work that wasn't high visibility. You mean no disrespect/no offense you say, but that's a hell of a follow up, that I 'come off as selfish and bear the hallmarks of a class archetype of a terrible manager'. I'm not sure how to say this politely, but if you want people to engage with you, you really need to learn how to not come across as offensive; just saying you don't mean to be doesn't really cut it. >> The whole job is about supporting the team and setting things up for successful outcomes. There is nothing wrong with being an individual contributor. If your organization limits how far ICs can go, take this as a sign of toxicity and consider finding a higher quality organization to join. All of this feels very much a non-sequitor; I have no idea what I said that you think this runs counter to (since I agree with every word of it), and so I disagree with the implication that this is a relevant argument.
dang 4y ago
Can you please make your substantive points without crossing into personal attack? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- metadat 4y ago
  I did try to word it in a neutral way, but I'll try harder in the future. Thanks for the feedback.
8note 4y ago
In a manager driven promo process, do you want gp in charge of whether you're promoted or not? Thats a benefit to having ICs run their promo process. Generally, I think freedom to have anyone drive an ICs promo process is better than forcing it to be one group or another. The IC might be best for it, or the manager might. Regardless of who it is, the IC can work at gaming the system, that's just the nature of systems and abuse

thumbsup-_- 4y ago

I did my own promo packet at a large tech company and it was the most depressing, demoralizing experience I ever had. The packet had 10's of things mentioned in it to provide evidence for and I felt I have done 2-3 big projects and I'm mentioning same thing for every line item but that was because we don't produce one line item worth of evidence in one project. Eng promotions at large tech companies are the most de-humanizing, de-moralizing things ever. I got promoted but I felt my morale took a huge dip after starting promo process as compared to before.