7 ms·

Seems pretty sexist to associate solving hard problems with masculinity. Women at Google also work on hard problems.

by klipt 5y ago

cvhashim 5y ago
Should have just said toxic humanistic traits
- ctvo 5y ago
  Toxic masculinity accurately represents what the OP describes and is clear here. There's nothing to be offended about. It's revealing the angst that sprang up from this community of mostly men.
  - lliamander 5y ago
    Classic Bulverism on display. Don't defend your position, just assume you're right and offer an armchair pyscho-analysis for why people who disagree with you are wrong.
    - ctvo 5y ago
      Here's some more Bulverism: What's there to defend? Colloquially toxic masculinity means exactly what the OP was going for. It's to jockey for power, position, and status at the expense of others (and often detrimental to their own goals). Hey! Women sometimes also display these toxic masculine traits commonly found in male primates! You should be more inclusive and call it toxic humanity! has to be one of the least useful things you can bring to the overall discussion.
      - lliamander 5y ago
        I suspect, though I cannot prove, than than many of those comments are made at least somewhat ironically. We've been perpetually informed than men and women are the same from the neck up for decades, and a Google employee (James Damore) was even fired for pointing out that men and women differ in their preferences, attitudes, and social behaviors. That it is now OK to acknowledge those differences when it makes men look bad is quite the standard to set. I mean, which is it? Are men and women the same or are they different (on average)?
      - lliamander 5y ago
        Also, that is not what toxic masculinity means. If you have an all-woman organization that has a culture dominated by counter-productive competition, you don't call that "toxic masculinity". That just wouldn't make sense. At best, the competition is a symptom of the real (alleged) problem of toxic masculinity: too many men. Specifically an environment where men are systematically favored over women for sexist reasons. That Google is suffering under such a system is a claim which needs defending.
  - tonguez 5y ago
- bregma 5y ago
  Should just have said toxic traits. Leave out the unnecessary elaboration because it contributes nothing and can detract from the point.
xoofoog 5y ago
The sexist part is not the "hard problems" but the competitiveness. I don't think sexism is intrinsic to solving hard problems - certainly gender-inclusive companies work on hard problems successfully. But in my experience those companies tend to be more collaborative. Google needs to celebrate heroes. Like Jeff Dean. Or Sanjay Ghemawat. Those are Great Men. They are "Living Gods" because they solved Really Hard Problems. Getting into that class of people requires being a "lead" which necessarily means other people around you aren't leading. So you need to prove why you're worthy of being the "lead" which means proving the others around you aren't. This is toxic masculinity. Not solving hard problems.
- Veuxdo 5y ago
  I'm don't see the connection between what you wrote and masculinity.
- hyperbovine 5y ago
  This take strikes me as a weird form of reverse-sexism, in the sense of Kinsley's famous piece about reverse-snobbery (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2001/03/bill-o-reilly-among-the-snobs.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2001/03/bill-o-reilly-am...).
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 5y ago
  It seems that you missed their point: the toxicity is non-gendered. (I say you missed their point but they also kinda did a poor job of making it, FWIW.) There might be a point that Google's culture in practice is male-dominant but I think it's mistaken thinking that puts the toxicity on the male-dominance. Consider your words as if they were being said about a woman: > Proving you're smart by solving hard problems is a gorilla-chest-thumping exercise. Isn't it still true?
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    It's hard to claim a phrase like "toxic masculinity" is non-gendered.
gorjusborg 5y ago
Assuming the worst possible interpretation of someone's comment is also toxic.
delecti 5y ago
Solving hard problems isn't an inherently masculine thing, but basing a work culture's progression around being able to prove employees solved hard problems is a pretty good example of toxic masculinity. And the phrase "toxic masculinity" does not mean that all masculinity has problems, it's a separate (and pretty well-documented) concept. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity
- tomp 5y ago
  Can you list example of "toxic femininity"? If not, you're just sexist, full-stop. (c.f. "toxic blackness" or "toxic Jewishness")
  - delecti 5y ago
    I'm not the one who named it. You're welcome to try and establish a new name for the phenomenon. Also, yes, "toxic femininity" is also a term (and is even linked from the other page), but for some reason I don't think you were asking in good faith. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_sexism#Toxic_femininity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_sexism#Toxic_femi...
    - tomp 5y ago
      ah, yeah, of course, "toxic femininity" is defined in such a way that men are still evil > such beliefs and expectations "[suggest] there is no a priori female self" apart from the needs and desires of men and boys textbook sexism

Seems pretty sexist to associate solving hard problems with masculinity. Women at Google also work on hard problems.

by klipt 5y ago

Seems pretty sexist to associate solving hard problems with masculinity. Women at Google also work on hard problems.

cvhashim 5y ago

Should have just said toxic humanistic traits

ctvo 5y ago
Toxic masculinity accurately represents what the OP describes and is clear here. There's nothing to be offended about. It's revealing the angst that sprang up from this community of mostly men.
- lliamander 5y ago
  Classic Bulverism on display. Don't defend your position, just assume you're right and offer an armchair pyscho-analysis for why people who disagree with you are wrong.
  - ctvo 5y ago
    Here's some more Bulverism: What's there to defend? Colloquially toxic masculinity means exactly what the OP was going for. It's to jockey for power, position, and status at the expense of others (and often detrimental to their own goals). Hey! Women sometimes also display these toxic masculine traits commonly found in male primates! You should be more inclusive and call it toxic humanity! has to be one of the least useful things you can bring to the overall discussion.
    - lliamander 5y ago
      I suspect, though I cannot prove, than than many of those comments are made at least somewhat ironically. We've been perpetually informed than men and women are the same from the neck up for decades, and a Google employee (James Damore) was even fired for pointing out that men and women differ in their preferences, attitudes, and social behaviors. That it is now OK to acknowledge those differences when it makes men look bad is quite the standard to set. I mean, which is it? Are men and women the same or are they different (on average)?
    - lliamander 5y ago
      Also, that is not what toxic masculinity means. If you have an all-woman organization that has a culture dominated by counter-productive competition, you don't call that "toxic masculinity". That just wouldn't make sense. At best, the competition is a symptom of the real (alleged) problem of toxic masculinity: too many men. Specifically an environment where men are systematically favored over women for sexist reasons. That Google is suffering under such a system is a claim which needs defending.
- tonguez 5y ago
bregma 5y ago
Should just have said toxic traits. Leave out the unnecessary elaboration because it contributes nothing and can detract from the point.

xoofoog 5y ago

The sexist part is not the "hard problems" but the competitiveness. I don't think sexism is intrinsic to solving hard problems - certainly gender-inclusive companies work on hard problems successfully. But in my experience those companies tend to be more collaborative. Google needs to celebrate heroes. Like Jeff Dean. Or Sanjay Ghemawat. Those are Great Men. They are "Living Gods" because they solved Really Hard Problems. Getting into that class of people requires being a "lead" which necessarily means other people around you aren't leading. So you need to prove why you're worthy of being the "lead" which means proving the others around you aren't. This is toxic masculinity. Not solving hard problems.

Veuxdo 5y ago
I'm don't see the connection between what you wrote and masculinity.
hyperbovine 5y ago
This take strikes me as a weird form of reverse-sexism, in the sense of Kinsley's famous piece about reverse-snobbery (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2001/03/bill-o-reilly-among-the-snobs.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2001/03/bill-o-reilly-am...).
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 5y ago
It seems that you missed their point: the toxicity is non-gendered. (I say you missed their point but they also kinda did a poor job of making it, FWIW.) There might be a point that Google's culture in practice is male-dominant but I think it's mistaken thinking that puts the toxicity on the male-dominance. Consider your words as if they were being said about a woman: > Proving you're smart by solving hard problems is a gorilla-chest-thumping exercise. Isn't it still true?
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  It's hard to claim a phrase like "toxic masculinity" is non-gendered.

gorjusborg 5y ago

Assuming the worst possible interpretation of someone's comment is also toxic.

delecti 5y ago

Solving hard problems isn't an inherently masculine thing, but basing a work culture's progression around being able to prove employees solved hard problems is a pretty good example of toxic masculinity. And the phrase "toxic masculinity" does not mean that all masculinity has problems, it's a separate (and pretty well-documented) concept. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

tomp 5y ago
Can you list example of "toxic femininity"? If not, you're just sexist, full-stop. (c.f. "toxic blackness" or "toxic Jewishness")
- delecti 5y ago
  I'm not the one who named it. You're welcome to try and establish a new name for the phenomenon. Also, yes, "toxic femininity" is also a term (and is even linked from the other page), but for some reason I don't think you were asking in good faith. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_sexism#Toxic_femininity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_sexism#Toxic_femi...
  - tomp 5y ago
    ah, yeah, of course, "toxic femininity" is defined in such a way that men are still evil > such beliefs and expectations "[suggest] there is no a priori female self" apart from the needs and desires of men and boys textbook sexism