7 ms·

Perl was the first language I used professionally and I used it almost exclusively for years. I don't understand all the negative comments about its use of sigi

by jkh1 4y ago

Perl was the first language I used professionally and I used it almost exclusively for years. I don't understand all the negative comments about its use of sigils, I find them useful and I never got the impression that they made the code less readable but maybe that's because I was never taught the gospel of computer science :) I also appreciate the extended backwards compatibility. I still occasionally run decade-old code and it's still doing its job which means that writing code in perl was time well invested.

tenebrisalietum 4y ago
Here's one reason why sigils could be considered to suck. `@array` - array of values. `$array[1]` - get element 1 of the array. `$array` - What do you think this does? Why can't we just `@array[1]`?
- hedora 4y ago
  The last one produces a helpful error message at script interpretation time. @array[1] is probably also an error, or you're doing something very strange / wrong, and it'll stick out like a sore thumb during code reviews.
- csdvrx 4y ago
  > `$array` - What do you think this does? I think it will throw an error if you declared my @array > Why can't we just `@array[1]`? Because that could return an array or a hash if you are dealing with structures likes arrays-of-arrays (AoA) or arrays-of-hashes (AoH). To my naive take, it makes much more sense to only identify high level objects to put them under one category (arrays, AoA, AoH -> @) then consider everything else as "uncertain" and default to $. Otherwise, you would have to declare AoA and AoH differently (ex: my @@AoA; my @%AoH;) and then the interpreter could see @AoA[1] and %AoH[1] as valid but %AoA[1] and @AoH[1] as invalid. I could see that as potentially having value to know at a glance what you are dealing with, but it might break many things, and casting to a new object with my %aoh_1 = %{ $AoH[1] } makes more sense.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jwilk 4y ago
    > Because that could return an array or a hash @array[1] returns a single-element list-like thing. It mostly works, but you get a warning: https://perldoc.perl.org/perldiag#Scalar-value-@%25s%5B%25s%5D-better-written-as-$%25s%5B%25s%5D https://perldoc.perl.org/perldiag#Scalar-value-@%25s%5B%25s%...
- G3rn0ti 4y ago
  Raku actually adopted that latter syntax. Although, it’s optional as everything really becomes a reference anyway. So you don’t need the „@“ and „%“ sigils any more.
- xorcist 4y ago
  Perl has "contexts" as its type system. Sigils are a part of that. There's a lesson here somewhere that most people don't generally want to understand stuff. So stuff that's the least bit different don't tend to go mainstream, things like Haskell have a hard time. Perl was a bit different but just happened to go mainstream anyway, and that probably coloured people's feelings for it, for better and for worse.
- bmn__ 4y ago
  > Why can't we just `@array[1]`? Because of slices. If you look at the complete table, you will never get confused again. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26578855 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26578855
- gnubison 4y ago
  Sigils indicate what an operation evaluates to, not what the input type is. You get used to it.
- matthewpersico 4y ago
  Because Perl is context sensitive and what we care about is not what is being stored but what is being accessed. 'array' is the variable. '@array' gives me the list in 'array'. '$array[1]' gives me the scalar ($) value at array[1]. `@array[3..7]` gives me the list (@) of values at array indexes 3-7, inclusive on both sides. (Why does Python use open ended ranges? <facepalm>) (Why is Python's slicing syntax an inflexible loop? <facepalm again>) `@array[1]`, by the way gives me the list of values at array index 1, which is the same as `$array[1]`
hedora 4y ago
One thing I like about the sigils is that they make bad ideas hard to type. Want to pass me a hashtable of lambdas that return arrays of alternating functions and regexps? Go ahead. Show me how to invoke it. I'm waitng. Python (which has all of the type safety and expressivity of perl) allows such abominations to hide behind clean looking syntax. Sigils also improve readability. Bad Perl looks like serial port noise. Bad Python looks like good python. (In Python's defense, it has a nice ffi.)
- leadingthenet 4y ago
  > Bad Python looks like good python. Never used Perl, so I can't really make an honest comparison. I do use Python at work, though, and I can assure you that is FAR from being true. In fact, I think this is so untrue that I urge you to check out essentially any code written in academia (especially projects involving numeric computation and data science). If you come back and make that same statement with a straight face, I'll eat my hat.
  - hedora 4y ago
    I meant superficially. I could write a script that computes histograms over the frequency of the characters in its input, and use the output to judge perl code quality. In Python, that heuristic wouldn't work nearly as well.
  - collyw 4y ago
    I have had colleagues (in academia) asking me to correct their unindented (or very badly indented code) in Perl. You couldn't actually do that ion Python.
    - leadingthenet 4y ago
      > You couldn't actually do that in Python ...and people endlessly complain about it to this day.
    - Ultimatt 4y ago
      https://metacpan.org/pod/Perl::Tidy https://metacpan.org/pod/Perl::Tidy is your friend. Think Black from Python land but far more powerful.
lifefeed 4y ago
Larry Wall said once that he added sigils in Perl so he could freely add features to the language without conflicting with other's peoples variable names. It's a language design choice that makes sense for Perl's maximalism approach to features. Perl is very well thought out, in a way that I don't think gets enough credit. For example, the three loop controls (next, last, redo) are four letters long, which makes remembering them easier. In a world where I sometimes have to jump between languages I haven't used in a while, and I'm always forgetting what arbitrary word choice this particular language used for a feature, it's nice to come back to Perl and have a language where the grammar is a little bit less arbitrary.
- dgunay 4y ago
  Two of my favorite Perl features: unless/until can be way more readable in some conditions than if/while. Postfix conditionals and loops make flatter code, especially in scripts. Love writing "do function() if $condition".
zzo38computer 4y ago
Other programming languages also have sigils, such as LLVM, etc. I think that it does not make it less readable. In some programming languages they will be used to avoid clashes with reserved words, which I think is a good idea. Some programming languages (such as BASIC) have suffix sigils to indicate data type; some (such as OAA) have both prefix and suffix sigils. Some programming language may allow multiple sigils together in some cases (e.g. Raku and Free Hero Mesh) (in Raku they called the secondary sigils as "twigils"). The meaning seems to vary depending on programming languages; some are used for similar purposes and sometimes they are used for different purposes. In Perl, the sigil can indicate scalar vs array (but not numbers vs strings), and in BASIC it can indicate numbers vs strings (but not scalar vs array, which is differently).
collyw 4y ago
Sigils look ugly but they do offer you more information than languages without. Someone described them as a mini hungarian notation.

by jkh1 4y ago

tenebrisalietum 4y ago

Here's one reason why sigils could be considered to suck. `@array` - array of values. `$array[1]` - get element 1 of the array. `$array` - What do you think this does? Why can't we just `@array[1]`?

hedora 4y ago
The last one produces a helpful error message at script interpretation time. @array[1] is probably also an error, or you're doing something very strange / wrong, and it'll stick out like a sore thumb during code reviews.
csdvrx 4y ago
> `$array` - What do you think this does? I think it will throw an error if you declared my @array > Why can't we just `@array[1]`? Because that could return an array or a hash if you are dealing with structures likes arrays-of-arrays (AoA) or arrays-of-hashes (AoH). To my naive take, it makes much more sense to only identify high level objects to put them under one category (arrays, AoA, AoH -> @) then consider everything else as "uncertain" and default to $. Otherwise, you would have to declare AoA and AoH differently (ex: my @@AoA; my @%AoH;) and then the interpreter could see @AoA[1] and %AoH[1] as valid but %AoA[1] and @AoH[1] as invalid. I could see that as potentially having value to know at a glance what you are dealing with, but it might break many things, and casting to a new object with my %aoh_1 = %{ $AoH[1] } makes more sense.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jwilk 4y ago
  > Because that could return an array or a hash @array[1] returns a single-element list-like thing. It mostly works, but you get a warning: https://perldoc.perl.org/perldiag#Scalar-value-@%25s%5B%25s%5D-better-written-as-$%25s%5B%25s%5D https://perldoc.perl.org/perldiag#Scalar-value-@%25s%5B%25s%...
G3rn0ti 4y ago
Raku actually adopted that latter syntax. Although, it’s optional as everything really becomes a reference anyway. So you don’t need the „@“ and „%“ sigils any more.
xorcist 4y ago
Perl has "contexts" as its type system. Sigils are a part of that. There's a lesson here somewhere that most people don't generally want to understand stuff. So stuff that's the least bit different don't tend to go mainstream, things like Haskell have a hard time. Perl was a bit different but just happened to go mainstream anyway, and that probably coloured people's feelings for it, for better and for worse.
bmn__ 4y ago
> Why can't we just `@array[1]`? Because of slices. If you look at the complete table, you will never get confused again. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26578855 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26578855
gnubison 4y ago
Sigils indicate what an operation evaluates to, not what the input type is. You get used to it.
matthewpersico 4y ago
Because Perl is context sensitive and what we care about is not what is being stored but what is being accessed. 'array' is the variable. '@array' gives me the list in 'array'. '$array[1]' gives me the scalar ($) value at array[1]. `@array[3..7]` gives me the list (@) of values at array indexes 3-7, inclusive on both sides. (Why does Python use open ended ranges? <facepalm>) (Why is Python's slicing syntax an inflexible loop? <facepalm again>) `@array[1]`, by the way gives me the list of values at array index 1, which is the same as `$array[1]`

hedora 4y ago

One thing I like about the sigils is that they make bad ideas hard to type. Want to pass me a hashtable of lambdas that return arrays of alternating functions and regexps? Go ahead. Show me how to invoke it. I'm waitng. Python (which has all of the type safety and expressivity of perl) allows such abominations to hide behind clean looking syntax. Sigils also improve readability. Bad Perl looks like serial port noise. Bad Python looks like good python. (In Python's defense, it has a nice ffi.)

leadingthenet 4y ago
> Bad Python looks like good python. Never used Perl, so I can't really make an honest comparison. I do use Python at work, though, and I can assure you that is FAR from being true. In fact, I think this is so untrue that I urge you to check out essentially any code written in academia (especially projects involving numeric computation and data science). If you come back and make that same statement with a straight face, I'll eat my hat.
- hedora 4y ago
  I meant superficially. I could write a script that computes histograms over the frequency of the characters in its input, and use the output to judge perl code quality. In Python, that heuristic wouldn't work nearly as well.
- collyw 4y ago
  I have had colleagues (in academia) asking me to correct their unindented (or very badly indented code) in Perl. You couldn't actually do that ion Python.
  - leadingthenet 4y ago
    > You couldn't actually do that in Python ...and people endlessly complain about it to this day.
  - Ultimatt 4y ago
    https://metacpan.org/pod/Perl::Tidy https://metacpan.org/pod/Perl::Tidy is your friend. Think Black from Python land but far more powerful.

lifefeed 4y ago

Larry Wall said once that he added sigils in Perl so he could freely add features to the language without conflicting with other's peoples variable names. It's a language design choice that makes sense for Perl's maximalism approach to features. Perl is very well thought out, in a way that I don't think gets enough credit. For example, the three loop controls (next, last, redo) are four letters long, which makes remembering them easier. In a world where I sometimes have to jump between languages I haven't used in a while, and I'm always forgetting what arbitrary word choice this particular language used for a feature, it's nice to come back to Perl and have a language where the grammar is a little bit less arbitrary.

dgunay 4y ago
Two of my favorite Perl features: unless/until can be way more readable in some conditions than if/while. Postfix conditionals and loops make flatter code, especially in scripts. Love writing "do function() if $condition".

zzo38computer 4y ago

Other programming languages also have sigils, such as LLVM, etc. I think that it does not make it less readable. In some programming languages they will be used to avoid clashes with reserved words, which I think is a good idea. Some programming languages (such as BASIC) have suffix sigils to indicate data type; some (such as OAA) have both prefix and suffix sigils. Some programming language may allow multiple sigils together in some cases (e.g. Raku and Free Hero Mesh) (in Raku they called the secondary sigils as "twigils"). The meaning seems to vary depending on programming languages; some are used for similar purposes and sometimes they are used for different purposes. In Perl, the sigil can indicate scalar vs array (but not numbers vs strings), and in BASIC it can indicate numbers vs strings (but not scalar vs array, which is differently).

collyw 4y ago

Sigils look ugly but they do offer you more information than languages without. Someone described them as a mini hungarian notation.