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The idea that bitcoin is useless as a currency should not be controversial these days. It's a speculative investment whose value varies wildly every day. That m

The idea that bitcoin is useless as a currency should not be controversial these days. It's a speculative investment whose value varies wildly every day. That makes it impossible to price a good or service in BTC. Add in transaction fees of several dollars each and the idea of buying a pizza with bitcoin becomes pure fantasy.

birdyrooster 5y ago
The bigger problem is constrained liquidity and deflation aren’t helpful attributes for a currency
- throwawaymaths 5y ago
  You say that as if there is a central bank of El Salvador that is able to print a native currency as a macroeconomic lever.
  - birdyrooster 5y ago
    Sure they can print money and buy more BTC, but at a cost. At some point that cost leads to economic failures.
    - throwawaymaths 5y ago
      You understand the currency of El Salvador is the us dollar? If they are printing money I'd love to know how.
      - birdyrooster 5y ago
        You keep talking about El Salvador but I am talking about the general problem with using deflationary currencies, especially when you cannot buy enough of the currency as a nation to compete with the rest of the world. Besides printing currency, nations can raise BTC by many other finite means.
gitfan86 5y ago
Ironically, BTC has been very successful at scaring some government officials into thinking that people may abandon their fiat money if fiat printing doesn't get under control. Because of this threat fiat printing will be never get to the point that BTC is a good store of value. It has been a huge success at what Satoshi was railing against, but will be a huge failure for the Michael Saylors of the world.
- perardi 5y ago
  The reaction of stock and bond markets is something approaching 100% more important than Bitcoin in changing government policy.
  - Consultant32452 5y ago
    If Bitcoin was inconsequential all the worst people wouldn't be coming out against it and governments across the globe wouldn't be actively trying to stop it. I have no idea if Bitcoin will ultimately be successful, but it is telling to look at the powerful people who are the most vocal against it.
    - cuteboy19 5y ago
      Except in this case it was enforced in a top down manner by an extremely corrupt president. No doubt he himself holds a huge bag and intends to funnel the wealth of his nation into pumping it. You ignore the obvious for some farfetch conspiracy
      - Consultant32452 5y ago
        Both things can be true. This politician can be corrupt and looking to enrich himself, and other politicians can see Bitcoin success as a threat to power. The first step is realizing that the central bank fiat systems are designed to be corrupted for the benefit of the people issuing the currency and their associates. Bitcoin may or may not successfully counter that, and Bitcoin may not necessarily be less corrupt.
hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
This is something I can't fully understand. Why didn't Salvador choose Bitcoin instead of one of proof-of-stake currencies? Choosing BTC is one of the worst if not the worst choice: (1) enormous transaction fees make it completely useless for everyday payments, (2) proof-of-work has a negative influence on our environment that we can no longer ignore- you'd think that a state player would know that and chose to be a bit more responsible.
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  El Salvador is a failed state run by corrupt assholes that make the GOP look like saints. Don't attribute to stupidity what can be explained by malice.
- Fargoan 5y ago
  El Salvador uses Lightning Network
  - rvz 5y ago
    Once again, The Lightning Network is not Bitcoin, and defeats the point of on-chain peer-to-peer electronic cash systems and payments using Bitcoin. It has been shown to be a centralized by design creation where the biggest nodes (The exchanges) can censor the payments. [0] Bitcoin has failed for on-chain payments as described in this article, this paper [0] and it's own white-paper. [0] https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/aba062 https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/aba062
    - arcbyte 5y ago
      A week ago I would have down voted you as a run if the mill bitcoin naysayers. Someone we see often who looked superficially at what the crypto market is doing and scoffed. There's a lot to scoff at, but the core proposition that is slowly rolling out is world changing. But over the past few weeks I've become really unsettled as I've dug into the history of bitcoin that I missed - the 2013-2017 Era say, when bitcoin really did fail at its core goal of being a currency. It has undeniably failed. That isn't to say it isn't finding a new use - but the whole ecosystem is missing that core currency use case. We're sort of seeing attempts at it with lightning network and stablecoins - but these are toys. All this to say, I agree with you, and I'm horrified that people will ignore and write off the experience and history offered by people who were there so they can jump on the latest fad - in this case a polarized bitcoin good/bad opinion.
Fargoan 5y ago
El Salvador uses Lightning Network

birdyrooster 5y ago

The bigger problem is constrained liquidity and deflation aren’t helpful attributes for a currency

throwawaymaths 5y ago
You say that as if there is a central bank of El Salvador that is able to print a native currency as a macroeconomic lever.
- birdyrooster 5y ago
  Sure they can print money and buy more BTC, but at a cost. At some point that cost leads to economic failures.
  - throwawaymaths 5y ago
    You understand the currency of El Salvador is the us dollar? If they are printing money I'd love to know how.
    - birdyrooster 5y ago
      You keep talking about El Salvador but I am talking about the general problem with using deflationary currencies, especially when you cannot buy enough of the currency as a nation to compete with the rest of the world. Besides printing currency, nations can raise BTC by many other finite means.

gitfan86 5y ago

Ironically, BTC has been very successful at scaring some government officials into thinking that people may abandon their fiat money if fiat printing doesn't get under control. Because of this threat fiat printing will be never get to the point that BTC is a good store of value. It has been a huge success at what Satoshi was railing against, but will be a huge failure for the Michael Saylors of the world.

perardi 5y ago
The reaction of stock and bond markets is something approaching 100% more important than Bitcoin in changing government policy.
- Consultant32452 5y ago
  If Bitcoin was inconsequential all the worst people wouldn't be coming out against it and governments across the globe wouldn't be actively trying to stop it. I have no idea if Bitcoin will ultimately be successful, but it is telling to look at the powerful people who are the most vocal against it.
  - cuteboy19 5y ago
    Except in this case it was enforced in a top down manner by an extremely corrupt president. No doubt he himself holds a huge bag and intends to funnel the wealth of his nation into pumping it. You ignore the obvious for some farfetch conspiracy
    - Consultant32452 5y ago
      Both things can be true. This politician can be corrupt and looking to enrich himself, and other politicians can see Bitcoin success as a threat to power. The first step is realizing that the central bank fiat systems are designed to be corrupted for the benefit of the people issuing the currency and their associates. Bitcoin may or may not successfully counter that, and Bitcoin may not necessarily be less corrupt.

hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago

This is something I can't fully understand. Why didn't Salvador choose Bitcoin instead of one of proof-of-stake currencies? Choosing BTC is one of the worst if not the worst choice: (1) enormous transaction fees make it completely useless for everyday payments, (2) proof-of-work has a negative influence on our environment that we can no longer ignore- you'd think that a state player would know that and chose to be a bit more responsible.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago
El Salvador is a failed state run by corrupt assholes that make the GOP look like saints. Don't attribute to stupidity what can be explained by malice.
Fargoan 5y ago
El Salvador uses Lightning Network
- rvz 5y ago
  Once again, The Lightning Network is not Bitcoin, and defeats the point of on-chain peer-to-peer electronic cash systems and payments using Bitcoin. It has been shown to be a centralized by design creation where the biggest nodes (The exchanges) can censor the payments. [0] Bitcoin has failed for on-chain payments as described in this article, this paper [0] and it's own white-paper. [0] https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/aba062 https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/aba062
  - arcbyte 5y ago
    A week ago I would have down voted you as a run if the mill bitcoin naysayers. Someone we see often who looked superficially at what the crypto market is doing and scoffed. There's a lot to scoff at, but the core proposition that is slowly rolling out is world changing. But over the past few weeks I've become really unsettled as I've dug into the history of bitcoin that I missed - the 2013-2017 Era say, when bitcoin really did fail at its core goal of being a currency. It has undeniably failed. That isn't to say it isn't finding a new use - but the whole ecosystem is missing that core currency use case. We're sort of seeing attempts at it with lightning network and stablecoins - but these are toys. All this to say, I agree with you, and I'm horrified that people will ignore and write off the experience and history offered by people who were there so they can jump on the latest fad - in this case a polarized bitcoin good/bad opinion.

Fargoan 5y ago

El Salvador uses Lightning Network