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The author is describing lifestyle brands. This is a market segment that's as old as time, they are prevalent on Instagram. He complains about a direct-to-cons

The author is describing lifestyle brands. This is a market segment that's as old as time, they are prevalent on Instagram. He complains about a direct-to-consumer underwear brand costing 10x as much as fruit of the loom. This isn't any different from Ralph Lauren, or Calvin Klein, or any of the legacy players in the segment. Lifestyle brands have large creative and marketing teams, with production secondary and technical production largely outsourced, sometimes to the manufacturing partners. This is a well worn business model for product categories in which all the margins have been competed away. Pricing power comes from the emotion of brand alignment.

bko 4y ago
Ralph Lauren underwear costs $11 - 18 a pair (directly, probably cheaper on Amazon), less than half the price this new start up is selling for. Apart from maybe Avocado, these companies aren't marketed as lifestyle, just sensible products. And note its not complaining. I don't care because I don't buy these overpriced products. I'm just commenting on the idea that all the "innovation" in consumer tech is basically just selling the same shit made in China for 10x the price to people who are susceptible to advertising. It's just weird and not the kind of progress I would expect in a dynamic innovative society. https://www.calvinklein.us/en/underwear https://www.calvinklein.us/en/underwear https://www.ralphlauren.com/men-clothing-underwear https://www.ralphlauren.com/men-clothing-underwear
- nikanj 4y ago
  That's not the only kind of innovation. There's also innovation in displaying ads, for the same shit made in China for 10x the price.
- soared 4y ago
  I challenge you to purchase a product from one or two of these brands and compare it to the Walmart/China version. They are not the same. From my experience, the quality has been better than brands I’d usually get at Nordstrom rack.
  - bko 4y ago
    You have a lot of faith in these brands. Bombas was founded in 2019 by an MBA grad and a marketing graduate. They have no reputation. These aren't like hand crafted sock makers doing this for decades in Italy. They're advertising companies and they sold you. As to where they're made its unclear: > Where are your socks made? We produce our products all over the world, including the US, Taiwan, China, and Peru at the most technical and highest-rated manufacturers. > We're proud to report that all have passed audits with very strict standards for health, safety, and social compliance. And to note I have both Bombas and Fruit of the Loom currently in my drawer. The difference is negligible in my opinion. You can ask me in a few years if my Bombas held up, but I can tell you my cheap Walmart brand stuff has held up. [EDIT] Bombas was founded in 2013, not 2019. 2019 was the date they started selling t-shirts. Point still holds that they don't exactly have a track record compared to a legacy player and I still doubt they'll exist in 20 years
    - rdtwo 4y ago
      Idk my kid has bombas and Walmart socks and there is a significant difference in quality. Maybe only 2-3x better but still difference is there
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        In what way is it twice as good? Even if it were somehow objectively twice as good, is it really a good value to pay 12X for something 2X as good?
        rdtwo 4y ago
        Yes it is because I can only wear one pair of socks and if he 1x price socks don’t cut it then 10x it is until we get to an acceptable level of comfort. Paying 1x for socks my kid won’t wear provides me 0 value where as paying 10x but having the kid wear them just means that this is how much socks cost. As to why they are better the toe knit eliminated the seam and hard spot where cheap socks terminate. The fabric wicks moisture better and get material is less abrasive. The knit and fabric all add significant additional cost to the fabrication process. Look up some videos on you tube on how socks are made.
- Aunche 4y ago
  There's a difference between Calvin Klein's regular underwear and their premium ones. The premium ones are comparable in price to something like Saxx
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  > these companies aren't marketed as lifestyle, just sensible products. Sensible is the lifestyle they are selling. Sensible is the Tech lifestyle.
- revolvingocelot 4y ago
  Er, do you live in a "dynamic innovative society"? If so, are they accepting immigration?
  - fundad 4y ago
    In a dynamic innovative society aspiration brand's can only use the same tired century old tropes about horsemanship like Polo by Ralph Lauren.
MangoCoffee 4y ago
not just lifestyle brands. i used to work for a Dell repair/reverse Logistics center. all Dell computer/laptop from design to manufacture is all done by ODM/OEM. Dell doesn't even design the computer/laptop. its all done by ODM/OEM and made in China. Dell essential is one giant sales dept. there are not much consumer goods that's made in US anymore
- drewzero1 4y ago
  I've been noticing that a lot, well-known US brands buying completed products from (usually) China and rebadging and marketing them as original products. I wouldn't have a problem with it if companies could be honest about their products, but marketing demands they retain the perception of originality. As an example, at least three well-known tool brands sell 20 volt cordless leaf blowers that are nearly identical besides the battery clip, branding, and the color of the plastic shell. As a consumer I would rather just know that they are the same tool so I don't have to waste extra time on research before buying, but the companies need to maintain the perception that their tools are original and different from everyone else's to protect the image of the brand. A lot of US companies seem to be coasting on brand image they built 50 years ago when they were actually doing their own innovating.
  - dfxm12 4y ago
    For reference: https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-owns-them/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-...
    - jjkaczor 4y ago
      Thank-you, very informative.
dfxm12 4y ago
I wonder then, is it easier to compete with Fruit of the Loom, or Calvin Klein? I may be willing to pay for a premium product, but only from a brand I know and trust, like (for the sake of argument) Calvin Klein. I'm not willing to take a risk on some new brand I've never of. If I'm buying something cheap, I really don't care about name brands and am more willing to try something new. Maybe I'm in the minority with my spending habits, though...
- dwallin 4y ago
  It's much easier to compete with Calvin Klein. People aren't buying Calvin Klein for quality, they are buying it for the brand. Fashion is a fickle beast, with constant churn and changing tastes, where a young brand with its finger on the pulse can make a name for itself. The purchasers are less price sensitive, which is ideal for small brands who don't have economy of scale and deep supply networks. On the other hand, Fruit of the Loom competes primarily on price. To stand a chance here you need scale. You'd need to bootstrap massive production capability, source cheap materials and labor, and try to find a way to either sell directly with a razor thin per-customer acquisition cost, or to build up relationships with massive distributers who will further cut your margins.
fundad 4y ago
Lifestyle branding is aligned with specific emotions about status. Ralph Lauren brands men who own horses and play polo as aspirational, that doesn't go against tradition. Lifestyle branding that associates "eco" with status... well that makes the front page of HN.
mint2 4y ago
Calvin Kline micromodal underwear is a whole different ballgame than fruit of the loom. The final price is due to a mix of quality and branding. It’s not just taking the same item and targeting “lifestyle” It’s not just a matter of targeting a different segment using the same material, the actual product offered usually has to be materially different. Hershey’s chocolate like candy product vs small batch artisan chocolate or Kraft American cheese product vs actual aged cheddar are not just marketing the same product to different segments.
- flappyeagle 4y ago
  Here you go Fruit of the Loom Men's Premium Luxe Modal Blend Boxer Briefs https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GK8XG8L https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GK8XG8L
  - mint2 4y ago
    I do not like polyester especially in areas that can get sweaty. That’s an obvious corners they cut and not premium. I’d need to actually order one to compare texture and seams but hard pass on polyester underwear. As the Amazon reviewer says: “Not as comfortable as other brands” citing CK among those other brands. Your product link strongly supports what I was saying, not sure if that was the intention.
- notacoward 4y ago
  > whole different ballgame What an apt phrase.
prostoalex 4y ago
> He complains about a direct-to-consumer underwear brand costing 10x as much as fruit of the loom. This isn't any different from Ralph Lauren, or Calvin Klein, or any of the legacy players in the segment. I mean, sure, but 1) Warby Parker glasses are generally cheaper than equivalent Prada frames. They might be more expensive than their online competition (Zenni, GlassesUSA), but the price advantage is unbeatable compared to optometrist's display case. 2) Harry's handles and razors are cheaper than equivalent Gilette's. Both brand now have online and offline presence (Harry's started exclusively online), but once again, it was hard to pass up on the price alone.

bko 4y ago

Ralph Lauren underwear costs $11 - 18 a pair (directly, probably cheaper on Amazon), less than half the price this new start up is selling for. Apart from maybe Avocado, these companies aren't marketed as lifestyle, just sensible products. And note its not complaining. I don't care because I don't buy these overpriced products. I'm just commenting on the idea that all the "innovation" in consumer tech is basically just selling the same shit made in China for 10x the price to people who are susceptible to advertising. It's just weird and not the kind of progress I would expect in a dynamic innovative society. https://www.calvinklein.us/en/underwear https://www.calvinklein.us/en/underwear https://www.ralphlauren.com/men-clothing-underwear https://www.ralphlauren.com/men-clothing-underwear

nikanj 4y ago
That's not the only kind of innovation. There's also innovation in displaying ads, for the same shit made in China for 10x the price.
soared 4y ago
I challenge you to purchase a product from one or two of these brands and compare it to the Walmart/China version. They are not the same. From my experience, the quality has been better than brands I’d usually get at Nordstrom rack.
- bko 4y ago
  You have a lot of faith in these brands. Bombas was founded in 2019 by an MBA grad and a marketing graduate. They have no reputation. These aren't like hand crafted sock makers doing this for decades in Italy. They're advertising companies and they sold you. As to where they're made its unclear: > Where are your socks made? We produce our products all over the world, including the US, Taiwan, China, and Peru at the most technical and highest-rated manufacturers. > We're proud to report that all have passed audits with very strict standards for health, safety, and social compliance. And to note I have both Bombas and Fruit of the Loom currently in my drawer. The difference is negligible in my opinion. You can ask me in a few years if my Bombas held up, but I can tell you my cheap Walmart brand stuff has held up. [EDIT] Bombas was founded in 2013, not 2019. 2019 was the date they started selling t-shirts. Point still holds that they don't exactly have a track record compared to a legacy player and I still doubt they'll exist in 20 years
  - rdtwo 4y ago
    Idk my kid has bombas and Walmart socks and there is a significant difference in quality. Maybe only 2-3x better but still difference is there
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      In what way is it twice as good? Even if it were somehow objectively twice as good, is it really a good value to pay 12X for something 2X as good?
      - rdtwo 4y ago
        Yes it is because I can only wear one pair of socks and if he 1x price socks don’t cut it then 10x it is until we get to an acceptable level of comfort. Paying 1x for socks my kid won’t wear provides me 0 value where as paying 10x but having the kid wear them just means that this is how much socks cost. As to why they are better the toe knit eliminated the seam and hard spot where cheap socks terminate. The fabric wicks moisture better and get material is less abrasive. The knit and fabric all add significant additional cost to the fabrication process. Look up some videos on you tube on how socks are made.
Aunche 4y ago
There's a difference between Calvin Klein's regular underwear and their premium ones. The premium ones are comparable in price to something like Saxx
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
> these companies aren't marketed as lifestyle, just sensible products. Sensible is the lifestyle they are selling. Sensible is the Tech lifestyle.
revolvingocelot 4y ago
Er, do you live in a "dynamic innovative society"? If so, are they accepting immigration?
- fundad 4y ago
  In a dynamic innovative society aspiration brand's can only use the same tired century old tropes about horsemanship like Polo by Ralph Lauren.

MangoCoffee 4y ago

not just lifestyle brands. i used to work for a Dell repair/reverse Logistics center. all Dell computer/laptop from design to manufacture is all done by ODM/OEM. Dell doesn't even design the computer/laptop. its all done by ODM/OEM and made in China. Dell essential is one giant sales dept. there are not much consumer goods that's made in US anymore

drewzero1 4y ago
I've been noticing that a lot, well-known US brands buying completed products from (usually) China and rebadging and marketing them as original products. I wouldn't have a problem with it if companies could be honest about their products, but marketing demands they retain the perception of originality. As an example, at least three well-known tool brands sell 20 volt cordless leaf blowers that are nearly identical besides the battery clip, branding, and the color of the plastic shell. As a consumer I would rather just know that they are the same tool so I don't have to waste extra time on research before buying, but the companies need to maintain the perception that their tools are original and different from everyone else's to protect the image of the brand. A lot of US companies seem to be coasting on brand image they built 50 years ago when they were actually doing their own innovating.
- dfxm12 4y ago
  For reference: https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-owns-them/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-...
  - jjkaczor 4y ago
    Thank-you, very informative.

dfxm12 4y ago

I wonder then, is it easier to compete with Fruit of the Loom, or Calvin Klein? I may be willing to pay for a premium product, but only from a brand I know and trust, like (for the sake of argument) Calvin Klein. I'm not willing to take a risk on some new brand I've never of. If I'm buying something cheap, I really don't care about name brands and am more willing to try something new. Maybe I'm in the minority with my spending habits, though...

dwallin 4y ago
It's much easier to compete with Calvin Klein. People aren't buying Calvin Klein for quality, they are buying it for the brand. Fashion is a fickle beast, with constant churn and changing tastes, where a young brand with its finger on the pulse can make a name for itself. The purchasers are less price sensitive, which is ideal for small brands who don't have economy of scale and deep supply networks. On the other hand, Fruit of the Loom competes primarily on price. To stand a chance here you need scale. You'd need to bootstrap massive production capability, source cheap materials and labor, and try to find a way to either sell directly with a razor thin per-customer acquisition cost, or to build up relationships with massive distributers who will further cut your margins.

fundad 4y ago

Lifestyle branding is aligned with specific emotions about status. Ralph Lauren brands men who own horses and play polo as aspirational, that doesn't go against tradition. Lifestyle branding that associates "eco" with status... well that makes the front page of HN.

mint2 4y ago

Calvin Kline micromodal underwear is a whole different ballgame than fruit of the loom. The final price is due to a mix of quality and branding. It’s not just taking the same item and targeting “lifestyle” It’s not just a matter of targeting a different segment using the same material, the actual product offered usually has to be materially different. Hershey’s chocolate like candy product vs small batch artisan chocolate or Kraft American cheese product vs actual aged cheddar are not just marketing the same product to different segments.

flappyeagle 4y ago
Here you go Fruit of the Loom Men's Premium Luxe Modal Blend Boxer Briefs https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GK8XG8L https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GK8XG8L
- mint2 4y ago
  I do not like polyester especially in areas that can get sweaty. That’s an obvious corners they cut and not premium. I’d need to actually order one to compare texture and seams but hard pass on polyester underwear. As the Amazon reviewer says: “Not as comfortable as other brands” citing CK among those other brands. Your product link strongly supports what I was saying, not sure if that was the intention.
notacoward 4y ago
> whole different ballgame What an apt phrase.

prostoalex 4y ago

> He complains about a direct-to-consumer underwear brand costing 10x as much as fruit of the loom. This isn't any different from Ralph Lauren, or Calvin Klein, or any of the legacy players in the segment. I mean, sure, but 1) Warby Parker glasses are generally cheaper than equivalent Prada frames. They might be more expensive than their online competition (Zenni, GlassesUSA), but the price advantage is unbeatable compared to optometrist's display case. 2) Harry's handles and razors are cheaper than equivalent Gilette's. Both brand now have online and offline presence (Harry's started exclusively online), but once again, it was hard to pass up on the price alone.