6 ms·

Just wondering, but have you talked with many teachers about this? Being married to one, and having a lot in my extended family, I know how real the legal risks

by aspir 15y ago

Just wondering, but have you talked with many teachers about this? Being married to one, and having a lot in my extended family, I know how real the legal risks are for something like this. I know these risks ultimately comes down to how the teachers use the tool, but districts and other organizations are liable if, say, a teacher says something "controversial." As a result, using something like this could get a teacher fired. If teacher/student ends up as an unattractive market for whatever reason, I'd consider teacher/parent - regular parent outreach a huge pain for teachers, and its also their number one "contact" after other teachers and district employees. I know my wife runs into a lot of headaches from the "fog of communication lag" or whatever you'd want to call it. Alternatively, this could be used as a small business tool for managers and shift workers. No more need to go about finding a replacement by calling down a list. Of this could just be a generic communication tool with employees who may not have regular access to email (things like trades, etc.) TL;DR: I think it's a cool tool, but teacher/student communication may be a little risky to start with. EDIT: You do deserve a huge credit for developing a tool that helps teachers, rather than attempts to remove them from the process. I've seen too many tools developed as "teaching aids" that seem to be rooted in the belief that teachers are somehow lacking and that a massed produced video game or application could replace them. These ultimately assume that the teachers are lazy or ignorant and would hand their students over to an outsider; which is why they never succeed. Congrats for not holding those assumptions.

leeHS 15y ago
I'm also married to a teacher, and I mostly agree with aspir, especially wrt teacher to parent communication. However, I don't see this as controversial. Yes, teachers have to watch what they say, but this is true of verbal communication as well. I'll be curious to see if this is "cool" enough for students, and desirable enough for teachers who will most likely be using this during their off-hours as well. Love the design btw. Simple and clear.
- kabuks 15y ago
  Thanks. Btrax.com did our design (they gave away 10 hours of free design to the winner). I highly recommend them.
yummyfajitas 15y ago
I've seen too many tools developed as "teaching aids" that seem to be rooted in the belief that teachers are somehow lacking and that a massed produced video game or application could replace them. This is an attitude I've observed before, but don't understand. A large number of startups are developed as "X aids" rooted in the belief that an application could replace X (examples include wufoo, craigslist, wikipedia, etc). Why do people dislike such startups when X == teaching? You are correct, however, that your competitors (teachers, in this case) will not promote your product and your startup is likely to fail if it is based on the assumption that they will do so. Similarly, wikipedia would have failed if it required Encyclopedia Brittania to promote it.
- aspir 15y ago
  EDIT: Sorry for the length :) This 1 minute video with Matt Damon glosses over my points well enough http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFHJkvEwyhk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFHJkvEwyhk The short of it is that there hasn't been a good "X aid" that's been proposed yet that solve the classroom issues. For me, the "I've seen..." etc. opinion comes from seeing a majority of education startups claiming to be "disruptive" without doing enough due diligence in the industry. I can often tell that the bulk of the research done by the entrepreneur is thinking back to their own school days or that of their kids. The reality is that, most likely, if you are a technology entrepreneur, you were at the top of your class your entire academic career, whether it be via GPA or through raw intelligence or through hard work. When you were in school you needed something "more" to augment your education, and the current system held you back. The entrepreneur now uses this experience to create a tool that would have sped his own learning along as a kid. It's not a "bad" assumption -- heck this was me for a while. I used to wholeheartedly believe that well-made learning games would change education forever and usher the US into a new knowledge renaissance. However, the reality of a classroom is far different than what one would assume. The process of education is different for each student, and is so dramatically different that modern software, videos, or digital tools cannot replace a teacher. Lets go back to the "future entrepreneur in the grade school class" example. For every first grader that's light years ahead of his peers, there's another who is light years behind. A first grader who doesn't know 75% of their letters of 50% of their digits. In the same class. To assume a tailored, yet mass produced lesson will teach this class better than a trained individual is ill-fated. To tell a teacher that one could is condescending. Each class and student deserves unique, custom education, and that's what the current system provides. Then there's the reality of a teacher's life. It's no picnic. Countless hours are spent grading, making lesson plans for the bulk of the class, coming up with extra projects for the gifted kids, and coming up with remedial training for the behind ones. On top of it all, teachers are forced to pay for the overwhelming majority of their office supplies. Need construction paper? Fork it up. Need extra copies? Fork it up. Need lamination? Fork it up. Need reading books that aren't falling apart? Fork it up. Want to get extra training to better teach your students and get a tiny pay raise? Oh, you'll definitely fork that up. The list goes on. Those expenditures make up the XYZ thousand a year that teachers spend on their classes that you see in market research reports. There's little room, if any, for software, especially if that software will ultimately do a poor job at reaching students. Bringing software in is high risk without the payment. Its the same as handing the class off to another teacher that they haven't met yet. And there's no summer break -- just a few months without students. They're working during that time period. Finally, the US is getting destroyed in science/math education by other nations. Those other nations are not using software to leapfrog us. They're using more interactive discussion, reasoning, and practical application of these concepts. Socratic learning, where the students lead the conceptual discussion with the teacher as a guide, not a lecture. Things like software and videos are great for teaching small groups. I plan on buying them myself when I have kids, and I plan to have the Kahn Academy site as my homepage. But the classroom ecosystem and supplemental learning scenarios are very different, and products developed for them should be targeted for the needs of that environment. I support innovation in the classroom wholeheartedly, but without the right level of research in developing products, you might as well be bringing a football to a basketball game :)
Roedou 15y ago
I'm not involved with this startup, but I did hear a bit about it from someone who was at the StartupWeekend in Seattle where it was realized. From what I remember, they did have a teacher on the team - and were recognized as one of the stronger groups for this reason. Also, I don't see any information about it on the site, but I think that one feature of the site may be that the teacher's bosses (department heads? headteachers?) can review all the communications. Hopefully that mitigates the legal risks a little - even if only because teachers would be more careful about what they text.
- kabuks 15y ago
  We came out of the MEGA startup weekend that was in mountain view last month. And we had a great teacher on our team who was part of Teach for America. You are also correct, our school plans give admins and other teachers read-only access to all communication. The idea is that the transparency will protect teachers from any appearance of impropriety.
afdssfda 15y ago
"As a result, using something like this could get a teacher fired." This is not a concern in modern private schools. In addition to the Saas apps they use that display grades, homework (e.g. which book or worksheet and which problems), etc. they have blogs incorporated in them. In addition, teachers frequently send emails. Texting would be just another form of electronic distribution. There is not reason to focus on it specifically as a way that a teacher could get fired. They now have a myriad of ways to say something stupid, but that is the way things are.
- aspir 15y ago
  I understand your point, but the concept of personal contact with a student on their personal phone is a very fine line that could be viewed very negatively by a very small, but vocal subset of parents. Also, the software that you're referring to, in my experience, is targeted for the parent, rather than the student. Its twofold better in that there's less ethical liability in parent communication as opposed to student communication, and these tools include the parent in the education process. They know about grades, attendance, and other things and can then take a more targeted role in their child's education.
west1737 15y ago
I definitely agree with the risks, but I also have a couple friends (mid 20s) that are high school teachers that have many of their students numbers stored in their phones cause they encourage the kids to text them if they have a question or a problem. This has rarely led to some inappropriate texts from students- which could certainly be a risk. Having an intermediary certainly won't eliminate risk, but it might mitigate some of it. I don't think it's a tool that all teachers will use- it's going to depend a lot of teaching style. My gut instinct says enough will use it to make it an interesting tool, and anything that adds to a teacher's box of tools sounds good to me.
- kabuks 15y ago
  Exactly. The main point it to mitigate the risk. How can we make this clearer?
  - west1737 15y ago
    I'd emphasize more that you can use the service without teachers giving the students their personal numbers- I can see it on the first page, but it doesn't jump out at you. Another idea (and you may already be doing this) would be to log all communications, and maybe even make them visible to everyone in the "class" via a web login. People are less likely to say something stupid if they know it's being recorded, and it gives teachers an easy resource to fall back on if a "he said/she said" scenario comes up with a student. That being said, I think it's a great way to mitigate risk for the teacher, but I wouldn't let that overshadow the main benefit, which is ease of use.
kabuks 15y ago
We surveyed 50 teachers before launching (inspired by the customer discovery/validation processes). 100% of them agreed that texting students puts their job at risk. 50% of them text students anyway to remind them of stuff, and co-ordinate with them. Our main value add, is to eliminate this 'creepy factor' and give teachers a way to communicate with students that doesn't risk their jobs.
- aspir 15y ago
  Well, numbers don't lie :) It looks like you stumbled onto something pretty awesome.
davidw 15y ago
> a massed produced video game or application could replace them. From my tired evening neurons idly percolating over that thought, some of the video game type things from my youth, and the business book/self help category... "All I really needed to know, I learned in Oregon Trail"

by aspir 15y ago

leeHS 15y ago

I'm also married to a teacher, and I mostly agree with aspir, especially wrt teacher to parent communication. However, I don't see this as controversial. Yes, teachers have to watch what they say, but this is true of verbal communication as well. I'll be curious to see if this is "cool" enough for students, and desirable enough for teachers who will most likely be using this during their off-hours as well. Love the design btw. Simple and clear.

kabuks 15y ago
Thanks. Btrax.com did our design (they gave away 10 hours of free design to the winner). I highly recommend them.

yummyfajitas 15y ago

I've seen too many tools developed as "teaching aids" that seem to be rooted in the belief that teachers are somehow lacking and that a massed produced video game or application could replace them. This is an attitude I've observed before, but don't understand. A large number of startups are developed as "X aids" rooted in the belief that an application could replace X (examples include wufoo, craigslist, wikipedia, etc). Why do people dislike such startups when X == teaching? You are correct, however, that your competitors (teachers, in this case) will not promote your product and your startup is likely to fail if it is based on the assumption that they will do so. Similarly, wikipedia would have failed if it required Encyclopedia Brittania to promote it.

aspir 15y ago
EDIT: Sorry for the length :) This 1 minute video with Matt Damon glosses over my points well enough http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFHJkvEwyhk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFHJkvEwyhk The short of it is that there hasn't been a good "X aid" that's been proposed yet that solve the classroom issues. For me, the "I've seen..." etc. opinion comes from seeing a majority of education startups claiming to be "disruptive" without doing enough due diligence in the industry. I can often tell that the bulk of the research done by the entrepreneur is thinking back to their own school days or that of their kids. The reality is that, most likely, if you are a technology entrepreneur, you were at the top of your class your entire academic career, whether it be via GPA or through raw intelligence or through hard work. When you were in school you needed something "more" to augment your education, and the current system held you back. The entrepreneur now uses this experience to create a tool that would have sped his own learning along as a kid. It's not a "bad" assumption -- heck this was me for a while. I used to wholeheartedly believe that well-made learning games would change education forever and usher the US into a new knowledge renaissance. However, the reality of a classroom is far different than what one would assume. The process of education is different for each student, and is so dramatically different that modern software, videos, or digital tools cannot replace a teacher. Lets go back to the "future entrepreneur in the grade school class" example. For every first grader that's light years ahead of his peers, there's another who is light years behind. A first grader who doesn't know 75% of their letters of 50% of their digits. In the same class. To assume a tailored, yet mass produced lesson will teach this class better than a trained individual is ill-fated. To tell a teacher that one could is condescending. Each class and student deserves unique, custom education, and that's what the current system provides. Then there's the reality of a teacher's life. It's no picnic. Countless hours are spent grading, making lesson plans for the bulk of the class, coming up with extra projects for the gifted kids, and coming up with remedial training for the behind ones. On top of it all, teachers are forced to pay for the overwhelming majority of their office supplies. Need construction paper? Fork it up. Need extra copies? Fork it up. Need lamination? Fork it up. Need reading books that aren't falling apart? Fork it up. Want to get extra training to better teach your students and get a tiny pay raise? Oh, you'll definitely fork that up. The list goes on. Those expenditures make up the XYZ thousand a year that teachers spend on their classes that you see in market research reports. There's little room, if any, for software, especially if that software will ultimately do a poor job at reaching students. Bringing software in is high risk without the payment. Its the same as handing the class off to another teacher that they haven't met yet. And there's no summer break -- just a few months without students. They're working during that time period. Finally, the US is getting destroyed in science/math education by other nations. Those other nations are not using software to leapfrog us. They're using more interactive discussion, reasoning, and practical application of these concepts. Socratic learning, where the students lead the conceptual discussion with the teacher as a guide, not a lecture. Things like software and videos are great for teaching small groups. I plan on buying them myself when I have kids, and I plan to have the Kahn Academy site as my homepage. But the classroom ecosystem and supplemental learning scenarios are very different, and products developed for them should be targeted for the needs of that environment. I support innovation in the classroom wholeheartedly, but without the right level of research in developing products, you might as well be bringing a football to a basketball game :)

Roedou 15y ago

I'm not involved with this startup, but I did hear a bit about it from someone who was at the StartupWeekend in Seattle where it was realized. From what I remember, they did have a teacher on the team - and were recognized as one of the stronger groups for this reason. Also, I don't see any information about it on the site, but I think that one feature of the site may be that the teacher's bosses (department heads? headteachers?) can review all the communications. Hopefully that mitigates the legal risks a little - even if only because teachers would be more careful about what they text.

kabuks 15y ago
We came out of the MEGA startup weekend that was in mountain view last month. And we had a great teacher on our team who was part of Teach for America. You are also correct, our school plans give admins and other teachers read-only access to all communication. The idea is that the transparency will protect teachers from any appearance of impropriety.

afdssfda 15y ago

"As a result, using something like this could get a teacher fired." This is not a concern in modern private schools. In addition to the Saas apps they use that display grades, homework (e.g. which book or worksheet and which problems), etc. they have blogs incorporated in them. In addition, teachers frequently send emails. Texting would be just another form of electronic distribution. There is not reason to focus on it specifically as a way that a teacher could get fired. They now have a myriad of ways to say something stupid, but that is the way things are.

aspir 15y ago
I understand your point, but the concept of personal contact with a student on their personal phone is a very fine line that could be viewed very negatively by a very small, but vocal subset of parents. Also, the software that you're referring to, in my experience, is targeted for the parent, rather than the student. Its twofold better in that there's less ethical liability in parent communication as opposed to student communication, and these tools include the parent in the education process. They know about grades, attendance, and other things and can then take a more targeted role in their child's education.

west1737 15y ago

I definitely agree with the risks, but I also have a couple friends (mid 20s) that are high school teachers that have many of their students numbers stored in their phones cause they encourage the kids to text them if they have a question or a problem. This has rarely led to some inappropriate texts from students- which could certainly be a risk. Having an intermediary certainly won't eliminate risk, but it might mitigate some of it. I don't think it's a tool that all teachers will use- it's going to depend a lot of teaching style. My gut instinct says enough will use it to make it an interesting tool, and anything that adds to a teacher's box of tools sounds good to me.

kabuks 15y ago
Exactly. The main point it to mitigate the risk. How can we make this clearer?
- west1737 15y ago
  I'd emphasize more that you can use the service without teachers giving the students their personal numbers- I can see it on the first page, but it doesn't jump out at you. Another idea (and you may already be doing this) would be to log all communications, and maybe even make them visible to everyone in the "class" via a web login. People are less likely to say something stupid if they know it's being recorded, and it gives teachers an easy resource to fall back on if a "he said/she said" scenario comes up with a student. That being said, I think it's a great way to mitigate risk for the teacher, but I wouldn't let that overshadow the main benefit, which is ease of use.

kabuks 15y ago

We surveyed 50 teachers before launching (inspired by the customer discovery/validation processes). 100% of them agreed that texting students puts their job at risk. 50% of them text students anyway to remind them of stuff, and co-ordinate with them. Our main value add, is to eliminate this 'creepy factor' and give teachers a way to communicate with students that doesn't risk their jobs.

aspir 15y ago
Well, numbers don't lie :) It looks like you stumbled onto something pretty awesome.

davidw 15y ago

> a massed produced video game or application could replace them. From my tired evening neurons idly percolating over that thought, some of the video game type things from my youth, and the business book/self help category... "All I really needed to know, I learned in Oregon Trail"