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> SEPA transfers within the EURO area are basically free. Not international; not a payment processor on any popular platform. > TransferWise is dirt cheap. N

> SEPA transfers within the EURO area are basically free. Not international; not a payment processor on any popular platform. > TransferWise is dirt cheap. Not really, when you compare it to low-fee crypto networks. If you sent 1.5 GBP to USD the fee is 0.35 GBP (23% of total), which makes it a poor choice for tips and small payments. Sending 15K GBP to USD carries a 61 GBP fee, or 150K GBP to USD carries a 563 GBP fee. Compare with a low-fee network like Tezos or zkSync. My last Tezos transfer was a fixed fee of 0.000544 XTZ or $0.001 USD. zkSync currently has an approx fee of $0.11 per transfer (a cost which will likely be reduced in the coming months with EIP 4844). These fees are fixed, regardless of whether you are sending 0.1, 1, 10K, or 100K tokens to the beneficiary.

arcticbull 4y ago
"low-fee" crypto networks are not a comparison because your goal is not to send "low-fee" cryptos, it's to transfer money. Transferring money requires a domestic transfer from your bank account to an exchange, purchasing on an exchange for a 1-2% fee, performing a "low-fee" transfer, selling on an exchange for a 1-2% fee, then performing a domestic transfer to a local bank account. Then adding these taxable events to your income taxes. Sending money this way is almost certainly slower, more expensive, way more prone to failure and exposes you to tons of counter-party risk. Remember the guy who lost $400,000 trying to send himself money between the US and Canada using Quadriga and got caught without a seat in the game of musical chairs? A better comparison would be a Wise Multi Currency Account [1]. You get a variety of worldwide bank account numbers. You can ACH into it for free (and SEPA, and EFT, and so on). There is no step two. Anyone in most world jurisdictions can open such an account. Anyone in much of the world can perform a free domestic transfer to send money into it no matter where you are. $0.00. This is what innovation looks like, IMO. Places payment processors charge you a large fee are almost certainly to cover the risk associated with that transaction - the risk which is not covered when performing a crypto payment. Let alone all the new risks that enter the picture when performing a crypto payment. You're still on the hook for these risks personally, mind you, it's just an unaccounted for externality. Dig into the business model of these payment processors and you'll quickly learn exactly why they charge what they do. Unpopular opinion: we have middlemen because they add value. [1] https://wise.com/gb/multi-currency-account/ https://wise.com/gb/multi-currency-account/
- mattdesl 4y ago
  > "low-fee" crypto networks are not a comparison because your goal is not to send "low-fee" cryptos, it's to transfer money. we are both talking about sending 'value' across the globe, e.g. Ko-Fi-style tips, international payments, charitable donations, Kickstarter-like crowdfunding, etc. for example, as an artist I am selling digital + physical media and accept fiat and crypto as a form of payment. I know many others in a similar situation, including nonprofit organizations that accept crypto. obviously not everybody accepts crypto and it is highly localized; but any merchant or online platform that decides to accept XTZ as a form of payment can already do so to mitigate the 2-5% payment processing fees that I mentioned earlier.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    Ok but it's not value if you can't spend it on things. In order to spend it on things you have to convert it to something that can be spent. So it's disingenuous to exclude that conversion step from your calculus. > ... but any merchant or online platform that decides to accept XTZ as a form of payment can already do so to mitigate the 2-5% payment processing fees that I mentioned earlier. But of course they won't because they can't spend it on things, like the inputs to the goods they sell (be that physical, rent or mortgage). They'll need to convert it, and that conversion fee will be something you pay by marking up the cost of goods.
    - mattdesl 4y ago
      I already am spending it on things e.g. art, donations, and peer-to-peer international payments. The number of services accepting crypto can continue to grow without transfers reaching the 2-5% processor fees I mentioned earlier.

arcticbull 4y ago

"low-fee" crypto networks are not a comparison because your goal is not to send "low-fee" cryptos, it's to transfer money. Transferring money requires a domestic transfer from your bank account to an exchange, purchasing on an exchange for a 1-2% fee, performing a "low-fee" transfer, selling on an exchange for a 1-2% fee, then performing a domestic transfer to a local bank account. Then adding these taxable events to your income taxes. Sending money this way is almost certainly slower, more expensive, way more prone to failure and exposes you to tons of counter-party risk. Remember the guy who lost $400,000 trying to send himself money between the US and Canada using Quadriga and got caught without a seat in the game of musical chairs? A better comparison would be a Wise Multi Currency Account [1]. You get a variety of worldwide bank account numbers. You can ACH into it for free (and SEPA, and EFT, and so on). There is no step two. Anyone in most world jurisdictions can open such an account. Anyone in much of the world can perform a free domestic transfer to send money into it no matter where you are. $0.00. This is what innovation looks like, IMO. Places payment processors charge you a large fee are almost certainly to cover the risk associated with that transaction - the risk which is not covered when performing a crypto payment. Let alone all the new risks that enter the picture when performing a crypto payment. You're still on the hook for these risks personally, mind you, it's just an unaccounted for externality. Dig into the business model of these payment processors and you'll quickly learn exactly why they charge what they do. Unpopular opinion: we have middlemen because they add value. [1] https://wise.com/gb/multi-currency-account/ https://wise.com/gb/multi-currency-account/

mattdesl 4y ago
> "low-fee" crypto networks are not a comparison because your goal is not to send "low-fee" cryptos, it's to transfer money. we are both talking about sending 'value' across the globe, e.g. Ko-Fi-style tips, international payments, charitable donations, Kickstarter-like crowdfunding, etc. for example, as an artist I am selling digital + physical media and accept fiat and crypto as a form of payment. I know many others in a similar situation, including nonprofit organizations that accept crypto. obviously not everybody accepts crypto and it is highly localized; but any merchant or online platform that decides to accept XTZ as a form of payment can already do so to mitigate the 2-5% payment processing fees that I mentioned earlier.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  Ok but it's not value if you can't spend it on things. In order to spend it on things you have to convert it to something that can be spent. So it's disingenuous to exclude that conversion step from your calculus. > ... but any merchant or online platform that decides to accept XTZ as a form of payment can already do so to mitigate the 2-5% payment processing fees that I mentioned earlier. But of course they won't because they can't spend it on things, like the inputs to the goods they sell (be that physical, rent or mortgage). They'll need to convert it, and that conversion fee will be something you pay by marking up the cost of goods.
  - mattdesl 4y ago
    I already am spending it on things e.g. art, donations, and peer-to-peer international payments. The number of services accepting crypto can continue to grow without transfers reaching the 2-5% processor fees I mentioned earlier.