6 ms·

> But you are correct about go, it doesn’t give the programmer enough control to be used at that level. What I like about go is that I can go full unsafe.Point

by lawl 4y ago

> But you are correct about go, it doesn’t give the programmer enough control to be used at that level. What I like about go is that I can go full unsafe.Pointer if i want to, and do whatever I want. The other thing I really like, is that they did such a good job discouraging it that i frequently hear people complain about go having pointers but not even letting you have fun with them. The problem isn't that go doesn't give you enough control, the problem is that it's garbage collected. And you'd need to work around the GC. It's doable and people have done it though. Good idea? Maybe not. Still waiting for someone to make "go but with ownership and borrow checker"

mumblemumble 4y ago
I think that being garbage collected is exactly the control problem in question. I'm no a systems programmer unless you count hobby microcontroller projects, but my understanding is that, when a systems programmer is talking about control, they tend to be talking first and foremost about keeping tight limits on memory usage. Pointers and suchlike just happen to be key tools that help you do that.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  One doesn't prevent the other, https://www.withsecure.com/en/solutions/innovative-security-hardware/usb-armory https://www.withsecure.com/en/solutions/innovative-security-...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ansible 4y ago
> Still waiting for someone to make "go but with ownership and borrow checker" That would have interested me more a few years ago, but I'm deeply invested in Rust these days. Is that all you'd change about Go? One of the reasons I moved was the error handling and lack of generics. Go has fixed the latter, but I can't stand not having Result<> and Option<> these days. The '?' is awesome too.
- lawl 4y ago
  > Is that all you'd change about Go? No, go has plenty of warts, like every language (ever formatted a date in go?). I just don't like kitchen sink languages.
3a2d29 4y ago
> “go but with ownership and borrow checker” Wouldn’t this be just a lesser version of rust then? If someone makes a new language and wants it to catch on, it needs new ideas. Not just nice simple syntax mixed with something someone else is already doing.
- lawl 4y ago
  > Wouldn’t this be just a lesser version of rust then? That depends if you consider C++ an upgrade over C :) Many flamewars have been had on this topic and i think it's just a matter of personal taste. I'm firmly in the less is more camp.
  - avgcorrection 4y ago
    Hilarious that you think that you could just add a borrowing mechanism + ownership and still be in the so-called less is more camp. That language would be looked down upon by the so-called less is more folks because of the “straightjacket” it would force on the programmer.
eatonphil 4y ago
You can't even call a non-Go library without switching to cgo, which contradictorily basically everyone says not to use. Leaving aside the GC, until Go has a real FFI it's hard to to imagine it being a really great fit for systems programming when the systems are all not written in Go.
- User23 4y ago
  Go is not a traditional systems programming language and calling it one is misleading at best and maybe even borderline dishonest. Two big problems are the lack of control of memory layout and the lack of some form that compiles down to a computed goto. It’s just not possible to write performant systems code without those. I’m not bashing Go though. I appreciate the focus on readability among other things. It’s a fine language for the use cases it was actually designed for, like pushing petabytes of ad data to serving clusters all around the world with acceptable latency and reliability.
  - eatonphil 4y ago
    Yes I agree it's a nice language. But the FFI situation is mildly infuriating.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    https://www.withsecure.com/en/solutions/innovative-security-hardware/usb-armory https://www.withsecure.com/en/solutions/innovative-security-... I guess the Genera, Xerox PARC, ETHZ, Microsoft folks are borderline dishonest.
    - User23 4y ago
      I would say that they evidently felt the need to write a new compiler and runtime, which appears to be a species of agreement with my thesis.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Apparently writing compilers isn't systems programming....

by lawl 4y ago

mumblemumble 4y ago

I think that being garbage collected is exactly the control problem in question. I'm no a systems programmer unless you count hobby microcontroller projects, but my understanding is that, when a systems programmer is talking about control, they tend to be talking first and foremost about keeping tight limits on memory usage. Pointers and suchlike just happen to be key tools that help you do that.

pjmlp 4y ago
One doesn't prevent the other, https://www.withsecure.com/en/solutions/innovative-security-hardware/usb-armory https://www.withsecure.com/en/solutions/innovative-security-...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ansible 4y ago

> Still waiting for someone to make "go but with ownership and borrow checker" That would have interested me more a few years ago, but I'm deeply invested in Rust these days. Is that all you'd change about Go? One of the reasons I moved was the error handling and lack of generics. Go has fixed the latter, but I can't stand not having Result<> and Option<> these days. The '?' is awesome too.

lawl 4y ago
> Is that all you'd change about Go? No, go has plenty of warts, like every language (ever formatted a date in go?). I just don't like kitchen sink languages.

3a2d29 4y ago

> “go but with ownership and borrow checker” Wouldn’t this be just a lesser version of rust then? If someone makes a new language and wants it to catch on, it needs new ideas. Not just nice simple syntax mixed with something someone else is already doing.

lawl 4y ago
> Wouldn’t this be just a lesser version of rust then? That depends if you consider C++ an upgrade over C :) Many flamewars have been had on this topic and i think it's just a matter of personal taste. I'm firmly in the less is more camp.
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  Hilarious that you think that you could just add a borrowing mechanism + ownership and still be in the so-called less is more camp. That language would be looked down upon by the so-called less is more folks because of the “straightjacket” it would force on the programmer.

eatonphil 4y ago

You can't even call a non-Go library without switching to cgo, which contradictorily basically everyone says not to use. Leaving aside the GC, until Go has a real FFI it's hard to to imagine it being a really great fit for systems programming when the systems are all not written in Go.

User23 4y ago
Go is not a traditional systems programming language and calling it one is misleading at best and maybe even borderline dishonest. Two big problems are the lack of control of memory layout and the lack of some form that compiles down to a computed goto. It’s just not possible to write performant systems code without those. I’m not bashing Go though. I appreciate the focus on readability among other things. It’s a fine language for the use cases it was actually designed for, like pushing petabytes of ad data to serving clusters all around the world with acceptable latency and reliability.
- eatonphil 4y ago
  Yes I agree it's a nice language. But the FFI situation is mildly infuriating.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  https://www.withsecure.com/en/solutions/innovative-security-hardware/usb-armory https://www.withsecure.com/en/solutions/innovative-security-... I guess the Genera, Xerox PARC, ETHZ, Microsoft folks are borderline dishonest.
  - User23 4y ago
    I would say that they evidently felt the need to write a new compiler and runtime, which appears to be a species of agreement with my thesis.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Apparently writing compilers isn't systems programming....