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I'm glad that you know some history, but I'm not sure what are you arguing with. Economic growth of 2000s did happen and it was a pretty liberal time back then.

I'm glad that you know some history, but I'm not sure what are you arguing with. Economic growth of 2000s did happen and it was a pretty liberal time back then. >The large ones were not independent in anything but the name long before being taken over by state. Let's take a few concrete examples of really big companies: VKontakte, Wildberries and Magnit. How exactly Putin and his gang exercised the control over them before acquisition (Wildberries still belongs to the founder)?

nogenhat 5y ago
lets see: 1. VK (Vkontakte) - Miralashvili, part of REK, friend of Sobchak and Putin :) 2. Wildberries - under patronage of Rosnef from the start. 3. Magnit - Galitskiy told from the beginning that he had to have a relationship with the government.
- ivan_gammel 5y ago
  This is not what is called "control". Just some stories from the old times, something that could happen anywhere. 1. Father of one of the co-founders had a business in St.Petersburg in 1990s, but already in 2001 he was arrested for kidnapping charges. Doesn't sound like a "friend", does not prove Putin's control over VK at that moment. 2. Source? The only thing I know is that the founder is distant relative of a person, who became VP in Rosneft in 2016, long after the company was founded. Quite a stretch for "patronage", though they could use their connections to defend from raider attacks and extortion. 3. Every large company in every country has some relationship with the government. This is not the same as control, not the same as having political influence over the company and not the same as using the business for embezzling the funds for political purposes. I know some companies where their GR was basically a CSO playing tennis with an old friend from FSB, which kept them under the radar of the regime - I would not even call it corruption (how often can you see a DA in USA playing golf with some businessman?). You have to be more specific. The reason why government or affiliated oligarchs take over the businesses, is to gain control because they did not have it before.
  - nogenhat 5y ago
    1. Yeh, your presentation is pretty friendly. Putin probably do not know what the k VK is, cause the all news he received through literally files :) But if you think that there is 'ex' in their circle of relationships - you are completely wrong. The fact that he was arrested actually proves it. 2. Look into Bell research against widberries, its quite public. 3. Yep, fair point.
    - ivan_gammel 5y ago
      >But if you think that there is 'ex' in their circle of relationships - you are completely wrong. The fact that he was arrested actually proves it. Sorry, I do not understand this. I did not mean literally Putin himself, but VK was not in any relationship with anyone from his inner circle (e.g. Timchenko, Rotenberg) or other oligarchs (e.g. Matvienko clan). Founders were forced to sell the company under pressure exactly because the government intended to get control over the most important social network, which it did not have. >Look into Bell research against widberries, its quite public. Do you mean the one from which I got information about relatives? https://thebell.io/nastoyashhaya-istoriya-wildberries-kak-tatyana-bakalchuk-stala-tsaritsej-russkogo-e-commerce-i-kto-ej-v-etom-pomog https://thebell.io/nastoyashhaya-istoriya-wildberries-kak-ta... It is a typical success story of an online retail business. It actually does not show anything that could be even slightly resemble affiliation with Putin and his inner circle. I know other relatively big companies which had similar growth trajectory and are still controlled by their founders.
      - nogenhat 5y ago
        //. Founders were forced to sell the company under pressure exactly because the government intended to get control over the most important social network, which it did not have.// Lol, I assume you didn't believe the 'story' that Pasha was forced to sell his company? //It is a typical success story of an online retail business. It actually does not show anything that could be even slightly resemble affiliation with Putin and his inner circle. I know other relatively big companies which had similar growth trajectory and are still controlled by their founders.// In Russia? really? show me them. For now, I think you are really trying to look fav into Russian biz-scene, but that's not the case for the last 9 years. You either work with gov or you f-ked. That the rule here. Last example is Tinkoff, who at the beginning of his bank licked Putin ass as hard as he could, but now was forced to sell )

nogenhat 5y ago

lets see: 1. VK (Vkontakte) - Miralashvili, part of REK, friend of Sobchak and Putin :) 2. Wildberries - under patronage of Rosnef from the start. 3. Magnit - Galitskiy told from the beginning that he had to have a relationship with the government.

ivan_gammel 5y ago
This is not what is called "control". Just some stories from the old times, something that could happen anywhere. 1. Father of one of the co-founders had a business in St.Petersburg in 1990s, but already in 2001 he was arrested for kidnapping charges. Doesn't sound like a "friend", does not prove Putin's control over VK at that moment. 2. Source? The only thing I know is that the founder is distant relative of a person, who became VP in Rosneft in 2016, long after the company was founded. Quite a stretch for "patronage", though they could use their connections to defend from raider attacks and extortion. 3. Every large company in every country has some relationship with the government. This is not the same as control, not the same as having political influence over the company and not the same as using the business for embezzling the funds for political purposes. I know some companies where their GR was basically a CSO playing tennis with an old friend from FSB, which kept them under the radar of the regime - I would not even call it corruption (how often can you see a DA in USA playing golf with some businessman?). You have to be more specific. The reason why government or affiliated oligarchs take over the businesses, is to gain control because they did not have it before.
- nogenhat 5y ago
  1. Yeh, your presentation is pretty friendly. Putin probably do not know what the k VK is, cause the all news he received through literally files :) But if you think that there is 'ex' in their circle of relationships - you are completely wrong. The fact that he was arrested actually proves it. 2. Look into Bell research against widberries, its quite public. 3. Yep, fair point.
  - ivan_gammel 5y ago
    >But if you think that there is 'ex' in their circle of relationships - you are completely wrong. The fact that he was arrested actually proves it. Sorry, I do not understand this. I did not mean literally Putin himself, but VK was not in any relationship with anyone from his inner circle (e.g. Timchenko, Rotenberg) or other oligarchs (e.g. Matvienko clan). Founders were forced to sell the company under pressure exactly because the government intended to get control over the most important social network, which it did not have. >Look into Bell research against widberries, its quite public. Do you mean the one from which I got information about relatives? https://thebell.io/nastoyashhaya-istoriya-wildberries-kak-tatyana-bakalchuk-stala-tsaritsej-russkogo-e-commerce-i-kto-ej-v-etom-pomog https://thebell.io/nastoyashhaya-istoriya-wildberries-kak-ta... It is a typical success story of an online retail business. It actually does not show anything that could be even slightly resemble affiliation with Putin and his inner circle. I know other relatively big companies which had similar growth trajectory and are still controlled by their founders.
    - nogenhat 5y ago
      //. Founders were forced to sell the company under pressure exactly because the government intended to get control over the most important social network, which it did not have.// Lol, I assume you didn't believe the 'story' that Pasha was forced to sell his company? //It is a typical success story of an online retail business. It actually does not show anything that could be even slightly resemble affiliation with Putin and his inner circle. I know other relatively big companies which had similar growth trajectory and are still controlled by their founders.// In Russia? really? show me them. For now, I think you are really trying to look fav into Russian biz-scene, but that's not the case for the last 9 years. You either work with gov or you f-ked. That the rule here. Last example is Tinkoff, who at the beginning of his bank licked Putin ass as hard as he could, but now was forced to sell )